Pa. Outdoor Woodburning ban

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ngzcaz

ArboristSite Operative
Joined
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Messages
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Location
NE Pa. ( Poconos )
Seems a few months ago there was a ban on outdoor wood burners being sold in Pa. The local Crown Royal & CB dealers have practically no stoves in stock. The ones passing the emissions testing are mainly the gassification units. In addition, local twps and the like have the authority ( I'd like to know who gave it to them ) to fine owners that ban burning older units even when installed years before the passage of these ordinances.
Apparently the burning by the local Christmas tree farms, regular farms and horse barns brush piles excess of 10 feet high of freshly cut brush that smolder for days on a regular basis is ok. An ordinance almost passed last year in our twsp.
Any comments ? I, for one, have two much money invested in this thing not to use it. I'd be more than open to an add on something that increases efficiency but to tell me to forget it is not an option. There are a few Shaver forums that attempt to do just that as well as other worthwhile mods. :(
 
What if its in a shed?There's got to be around these idiots who want you to go broke heating your house and default on the mortgage.
 
PA Bulletin, Doc. No. 10-1876

Ok, here's the real thing. Some changes but still very strict. I agree with alot of it, no burning garbage, tires, etc. but it looks like coal can only be used if approved by DEP. What a crock! i'm watching my phase 1 OWB right now and see almost no smoke.

I guess this means they'll be banning brush burning, chicken houses, manure pits, etc. next. Maybe we should ban the politicians cause they all stink too!!:angry:

I does look like you are ok if you already had the OWB installed prior to the regulation.
 
outdoor wood boiler issues

Seems a few months ago there was a ban on
outdoor wood burners being sold in Pa.

The local Crown Royal & CB dealers have
practically no stoves in stock.

The ones passing the emissions testing are
mainly the gassification units.

In addition, local townships and the like have
the authority ( I'd like to know who gave it to them)
to fine owners that ban burning older units even
when installed years before the passage of these ordinances.



(The local zoning laws have precedence)



Apparently the burning by the local Christmas tree farms,
regular farms and horse barns brush piles excess of
10 feet high of freshly cut brush that smolder for days
on a regular basis is ok.



(open burning is permitted seasonally in most states
except in the case of severe drought)





An ordinance almost passed last year in our township,
any comments ?


(It is your local laws which take precedence)



I for one, have too much money invested in this thing
not to use it.

I'd be more than open to an add on something that
increases efficiency but to tell me to forget it is
not an option.

There are a few Shaver forums that attempt to do just
that as well as other worthwhile mods. :(



About the only way you will be
able to get through this without
torment is this way:


The installation of a water scrubber
will remove all the particulates
and only emit steam vapors.


You would have to add chimney pipe
and route it back down into and through
the water scrubber-unless you elevate the
water scrubber to the stack level to pipe the
smoke through the scrubber through the top
with a pair of elbows and straight pipe into
the scrubber with a short straight piece and
a third elbow to discharge the steam vapor.


The exhaust is piped below the "Mechanically"
maintained water level in the water scrubber
tank, meaning using an automatic filler with a
ball float level fill valve.


You could add a second presure regulator on
the cold return side to fill the scrubber tank
and the water level control ball rated for hot
water would do the rest.


The water scrubber will only work if you
have a forced draft system to make sure
the smoke is pushed into the water in
the scrubber tank.


In this way the smoke is trapped and the
unburned particulates are held by the water
in the scrubber tank.


The scrubber tank will have to be cleaned
occasionally and the simplest way would be
to have the lid and top elbow removable to clean
it out as you wil have a lot of sludge to remove.

The sludge is the unburned smoke and carbon
in the exhaust.


This is about the only way you will be able to
use your water stove with no issues.
 
Good heavens, this sounds like it was written by someone who sits at a desk
all day and doesn't have any idea how people are struggling just to survive. Please,
no offense intended or rant against your post but these are owb's, not a Nuke plant or
similar device that could affect millions of people. If the same amount of energy would be
expended trying to improve the existing units we would all be better off and would make this discussion moot.

So............... why isn't this in place for coal plants etc ?... this would make the use of
a resource that would last the USA for hundreds of years and literally be able to thumb our nose ( finally at OPEC ) If it already is in use, it obviously isn't an " easy " or inexpensive fix.. Take a ride past Gary, Indiana ( you don't even have to get into the main city, the smell will tell you you're there ) I suppose these same genius's will say that owb's are the problem, same for L.A. Philly, Pittsburgh, etc etc :msp_smile:

BTW, local ordinances and state laws do not supersede federal laws pertaining to the same circumstances. My point being, it seems a lot of local people get what they perceive as a little authority and it goes to their heads and logic goes out the window. When the Feds come out with authoritative and demonstrative proof that owb's are the main root cause of all evil and only they should be banned, well then I'll take another look at it. What a fantastic waste of time and money for the very small number of owb's in use today. No wonder our country is in the shape its in.
 
Owb

Its a shame thats all these yuppies have nothing better to do is pick on someone that heats there home saving tons of money but i can see why is alot of people that have one around city limits and burn green wood,railroad ties and garabage that ruins it for the rest of us!!!!but the key people dont understand is GOOD SEASONED HARDWOODS!!!!!
 
outdoor boilers

Good heavens, this sounds like it was written by someone who sits at a desk
all day and doesn't have any idea how people are struggling just to survive. Please,
no offense intended or rant against your post but these are owb's, not a Nuke plant or
similar device that could affect millions of people. If the same amount of energy would be
expended trying to improve the existing units we would all be better off and would make this discussion moot.

So............... why isn't this in place for coal plants etc ?... this would make the use of
a resource that would last the USA for hundreds of years and literally be able to thumb our nose ( finally at OPEC ) If it already is in use, it obviously isn't an " easy " or inexpensive fix.. Take a ride past Gary, Indiana ( you don't even have to get into the main city, the smell will tell you you're there ) I suppose these same genius's will say that owb's are the problem, same for L.A. Philly, Pittsburgh, etc etc :msp_smile:

BTW, local ordinances and state laws do not supersede federal laws pertaining to the same circumstances. My point being, it seems a lot of local people get what they perceive as a little authority and it goes to their heads and logic goes out the window. When the Feds come out with authoritative and demonstrative proof that owb's are the main root cause of all evil and only they should be banned, well then I'll take another look at it. What a fantastic waste of time and money for the very small number of owb's in use today. No wonder our country is in the shape its in.





Ok get it through your head that I do not sit at a desk all day, lets cover this issue first.


Second zoning laws are used to regulate buildings and businesses and desired uses in the area WHERE THEY ARE ENACTED by the elected officials of the area where zoning is enforced. Try telling yor local township that they are spending your money poorly on a "snow plow" when a better snow removal machine like a road grader will cost less money and will be less costly to own and maintain.


Because of the Clean Air Act:
Large Coal fired power plants use electrostatic precipitators in combination with water scrubbers in the base of their Pulverised Coal Boilers.


Fluidised combustion bed boilers burn with Ground Limestone to convert the stack emmisions using a water ring inside the chimney into chemically rendered Gypsum. The remnants of these stack emmisions also include sulfuric acid as well.



I am familiar with Gary, Indiana The simple fact that coking coal is made SOFT Bituminous coal to make steel which is difficult to make with casting machines, continuos casting machines and the "Bessemer Process" of steel making, and there is a lot of sulphur in Bituminous coal and it requires huge amounts of combustion air to burn it to make Steel and Steam for electricity. You do know that iron ore has sulphur in it dont you? Steel mill stack fumes are very hard to clean for these reasons.



Being a pensioner allows me the luxury of negative returns do you know what they are?

I also cut my own wood and have a small firewood processor.

I also burn softwoods, hardwoods and Deep Mined Anthracite Coal and have a leaky old house that does not heat well with a 29 year old wood and coal boiler that has 25 gallons of water capacity.


I burn 12 full cords of fuel wood on average annually and at least a ton of Deep Mined Anthraciteon a good year plus 1,000 or more gallons of kerosene for which I pay dearly with my BUDGET PLAN from Suburban Propane.

So your assuming I sit at a desk all day and simply raise or lower a thermostat to solve my heating and cooling issues is unfortunately both a sorely missconcieved notion and disturbing.

All I ever do on this forum is try to help folks.

Two years ago I filled my boiler half full of standard firebrick and used a 12 inch piece of channel iron to cover half the coal grates to increase the draft efficiency of my boiler and I wish I had thought of doing it 28 years ago and I have mentioned how well it works for me and my oversized chimney many times for the benefit of the forum.

Yes these machines are "Outdoor Water Stoves" with all there warts and birth marks and extremely low water storage capacity which is ninety nine percent of the problem which would allow them to burn hot at all times with a very very small intense fire which will make use of the atmosperic air which contains 21 percent oxygen on average to its utmost advantage with a forced draft boiler.

If the "outdoor water stove" was lined with firebrick it would prevent a lot of the issues with warping and cavitation corrosion within the water jacket which destroys some of the metal that should not be used for an Outdoor Water Stove anyway.

Do whine please about outdoor boilers where the some of the manufacturers of these things take short cuts and do not solve the issue with boiler plate and firebrick the first time to eliminate problems and increase the heat extracted that always exits the chimney of your water stove in the pursuit of profit. Do you even realise the amount of Millions of British Thermal Units of heat value you lose when the boiler is shut down and its is smoldering????????????????????


What they lack is an induced draft fan to aid in COMBUSTION which is the act of fuel, oxygen and heat which are the three parts of the Fire Triangle, Do you know what the fire triangle is????

What they lack is a huge water supply with a tube type boiler to store heat and allow a hot fire at all times in a firebrick lined firebox with a small intense fire. How do you think steam locomotives and steam powered rotary snow plows worked so well and were so efficient using anthracite coal???



The addition of excess fuel wood only complicates matters as the amount oxygen available to burn the fuel wood becomes less and the boiler becomes less efficient because the oxygen can not BURN until there is more room in the firebox.



So if its alright with you please do not assume I am a Yuppy and that I do not know anything about steam and hot water boilers.



The water scrubber is the only thing that is going to solve your problems and many others specific issues with smoke unless you purchase a coal or pellet stoker from Harmon in this example.



You can complain all you want about the issues with your locality and outdoor boilers and your local and federal laws and how you are being screwed by politicians that are power mad.

The thing is the issue is simply bad boiler design and poor design because of the combustion chamber, lack of fire brick, and simply following designs used for tube boilers by making burn chamber bigger.

This adds to the problem as adding more wood is not and canot be the answer. longer burn times are fine but a larger watrer supply and an intense small fire are the simple solution to your boiler problems.

That is why I have decided I will not use one for the reasons stated above.


Oh and I have been burning wood since 1982.
 
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The town council in Sligo, Pa meets in an old brick(former school) building with a old time coal furnace for heat. Black smoke pouring out of the chimney while they decide that town residents can no longer use outdoor wood burning stoves to heat their homes. I think it is terribly hypocritical. Also, I think we need to start over from 1776 and make some changes.
 
water stoves

The town council in Sligo, Pa meets in an old brick(former school) building with a old time coal furnace for heat. Black smoke pouring out of the chimney while they decide that town residents can no longer use outdoor wood burning stoves to heat their homes. I think it is terribly hypocritical. Also, I think we need to start over from 1776 and make some changes.




About the town council meeting place;


If you see lots of black smoke that indicates they are using
Soft Bituminous coal to heat the building.

You should contact the Pennsylvania DEP and tell them they
are using soft coal to heat their building with no pollution controls.


Anthracite burns with almost no smoke and the smoke that does
occur is white when more coal is added to the the stove or boiler.

This smoke dissappears quickly when the boiler is closed and the
bottom draft is allowed to admit combustion air under the coal grates.




About starting over from 1776 it is not required as:

In the United States of America:

We have what is referred to as a "Constitutional Democracy" which is the founders of this
fledgling nation "wanted" to have to allow proper representation of the citizens of
the new nation rather than a "Constitutional Monarchy".


If we managed to eliminate the Political Action Committee's, The lobbyists,
The corporate special interest groups bent on persuing thier own agenda
by greasing the wheels of government to get what benefits them and to Hell
with the common man who is nothing to them, the Illegal aliens who come here
flaunting their collective existance anywhere and every where to get cash money jobs,
the underground economy which denies the states and federal treasuries of income
which will reduce the tax burden on the ordinary citizen, eliminated pork projects
completely like the many projects named after senators and congressman to "Help"
thier district HAHAHHAHA.

While we are at it we can eliminate the automobile and reinstate long distance train travel
and the inter-urban trolley and eliminate the need to consume almost 200 billion barrels
of refined crude oil every year for the federla highway system and ocean going ships that
use Sulzer diesel engines and hundreds of tons of diesel fuel for each voyage which pollutes
the air we breath with unpurified diesel exhaust.

More people can be put to work rebuilding the railroad system and adding jobs as the costs of maintaining
the federal and state highway systems are at the breaking point because of declining tax revenues.

The system is broken plain and simple and if we instituted a 60 day per year legislative session to
manage these issues and solve the problems without catering to "special interest groups" the country
would be better off as a whole.


As far as the Illegal alien problem is concerned we could have followed Indonesia's example and rounded up
every illegal alien and thier family members and simply deported them en mass and told them to apply for legal emmigration we would have riots in the streets.


The old saying goes like this: You have to treat and cure all the diseases to cure the patient.

We have become too politically correct to correct the problems at the end of our collective noses in the trough and the innocent victim is the low income wage earner, the retiree, the indigent man who is sleeping in a shelter, the family who nolonger has abread winner to support them who is losing thier home because of a foreclosure and the many excellent programs that are offered by the national, state and local governments that are suffering from low tax revenues because of White Flight and the dreaded cuts to our military which are inevitable BUT these cuts would not be necessary if the proper accounting was managed and expenses overseen more prudently than in years past





I would much prefer a Constitutional Democracy than be dealt with by and live under
dictators like Robert Mugabi and many others that have fallen recently.
 
Holy cow!!
10 cords + 1,000 gallons kerosene... how many sq ft are you heating?


I burn 12 full cords of fuel wood on average annually and at least a ton of Deep Mined Anthraciteon a good year plus 1,000 or more gallons of kerosene for which I pay dearly with my BUDGET PLAN from Suburban Propane.
 
leon, I've read a lot of your past comments and I have to admit I'm kinna on the fence as to if you know what you are talking about or not. Now that you've stated how much wood, coal and kerosene you use I'm thinking I better build the fence higher to keep you in. Please explain to me and others here how and what you heat using that much material. I burn only wood and have a fairly big house, not that well insulated and live in the frozen north. I use around 6 full cord of ash or maple per year. And I like my house hot. We have electric backup but never use it. I heat my garage with propane. Hot water is all electric. I've read this several times and I know it sounds like I'm being a smartazz but I've read other comments about burning 10 to 20 full cords of wood a year and I just can't believe how that is possible. It would be cheaper to burn the house down, collect the insurance and build a more efficient house and heating system.

12 full cords of wood. Granted you said hardwoods and softwoods. (value $'s)
1000 plus gallons of kerosene. ( how many $'s worth)
1 Ton of coal. ( value $'s)

PS, I do think you know what you are talking about but I don't think some of it is practical for home use.
 
water stoves

Holy cow!!
10 cords + 1,000 gallons kerosene... how many sq ft are you heating?

2,400 square feet with a 100 plus year old Frankenstein of a school house with a
lot of hidden problems that came to light when the ceiling fell in one of the rooms.


That "good ole boy car salesman" was his own carpenter, roofer, painter, plumber etc.,

I just hope the 5 other mortgages he held were as screwed up as my "house" which was
a one room school house where he and his wife went to school, his parents and aunt
and uncle and other immediate family on the mountain which had the "name of the family-ville.
.
The whole mountain was a family farm until the late fifties

The place on a state maintained road and is exposed on all 4 sides with high winds during the
winter months as it is 1,140 feet above mean sea level.
 
water stove etc.

leon, I've read a lot of your past comments and I have to admit I'm kinna on the fence as to if you know what you are talking about or not. Now that you've stated how much wood, coal and kerosene you use I'm thinking I better build the fence higher to keep you in. Please explain to me and others here how and what you heat using that much material. I burn only wood and have a fairly big house, not that well insulated and live in the frozen north. I use around 6 full cord of ash or maple per year. And I like my house hot. We have electric backup but never use it. I heat my garage with propane. Hot water is all electric. I've read this several times and I know it sounds like I'm being a smartazz but I've read other comments about burning 10 to 20 full cords of wood a year and I just can't believe how that is possible. It would be cheaper to burn the house down, collect the insurance and build a more efficient house and heating system.

12 full cords of wood. Granted you said hardwoods and softwoods. (value $'s)
1000 plus gallons of kerosene. ( how many $'s worth)
1 Ton of coal. ( value $'s)

PS, I do think you know what you are talking about but I don't think some of it is practical for home use.




I could not pay off my mortgage and rebuild and burn the old place down because
house burning for fire practice is no longer allowed in New York State.


I had a rude awakeing with this house finding out several of the exterior walls
do not have insulation and one bedroom does not have roof joists to hang insulation which is
what we found when the ceiling fell down and exposed the sheet metal roof of the that portion
of the place.



I wanted to add rock wool insulation over the living room and I bought 30 bags of rock wool
30 years ago and I could not do it because ceiling tiles were not secured to ceiling joists
and the insulation is still in the bags up in the attic space above the bathroom which also leaks.







I have never have had the income to make repairs because the estimates for a new
metal roof alone was $40,000.00



Last year and this year until august 28th we spent over $2,000 dollars
on kerosene with the budget plan which we pay over 11 months and we
are on an automatic fill schedule.


I also heat my hot water preheating the water before it enters the propane fired hot water heater.


We were paying over 4 dollars a gallon from September 2010 to August 2011


When I was buying firewood it cost me $185.00 a cord and I managed to
buy 15 cords over the span of one summer.


Blawshack coal was 5 dollars a bag for a fifty pound bag for 2010 of last year and it is 6 dollars
a bag this year.

I bought a ton of Centrailia bagged coal being stove and nut for $220 dollars this summer to save $20 dollars
before the seasonal price increase.


My cut in for the oil boiler which is a Buderous Logana 024 is 160 degrees and I plan on
removing the ignition module to keep that in check during the day.

I have temperature balancing pump that circulates the hot water between the boilers to maintain an even
temperature during the heating season.

This summer I lucked into 25 full cords of oak off my fathers building lot and have been hauling it home with
a 40 mile round trip and have 3 cords left to bring down. I now own a firewood junkyard so to speak.


How far are you from the port and the Coastal Minerals salt mine Cantoo?
 
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leon, I'm 20 miles from the mine. Lots of my neighbours wrok there or are retired from there. They are starting to get a few guys back to see what damage has been done and what they can get started back up. Above ground buildings have been ruined or pretty much wiped out.
I hear you on the old house deal. My parents heated our big house with 100% electric when I grew up, I bought it several years ago and changed to 99.9% wood heat because it was the only way I could afford to keep the house. Now partly due to this site I have 10 years worth of electric heat invested in saws, conveyor, splitters, parts, tractor and buckets. I'm to the point where I'm gonna have to live and burn wooduntil I'm 100 in get my investment back.
 
Goderich

Hello Cantoo,

Are you telling me the new domes they
put up for storage are knocked down
as well as the loading/scale stations for the
trucks and railcars is blown down too?????????


About the poor man that died, where was he when he died?,
on one of the tipples?

My condolences go out to the family as former miner;
I guess Saint Barbara was not watching out for this man
on that day.
 
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