playing with a pop-up, 066 BB

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mtngun

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Since the pitted, scratched, OEM jug didn't seal up well, and since I have a nearly new BB kit laying around, and since I need more practice at woods porting, why not woods port the BB ?

Well, because a pop-up will make the exhaust free port even worse, that's why not. :rant:

On the other hand, perhaps the woods port will do more good than harm, and if it doesn't work satisfactorily, I'm not out anything except my time.

So here we go......

I bead blasted the carbon off the BB chamber and piston top so I could get a clean chamber volume measurement. The piston was pushed all the way against the squish band while a 10cc syringe dribbled water into the spark plug hole. The process was repeated just to be sure. 10.3 cc and then 10.4 cc, we'll call it 10.35 cc for the "zero squish" chamber volume.

How much can be safely shaved off the BB piston ? Not a heck of a lot. The top land is only 0.110" (2.79 mm) thick, grrrrr :bang:

Grande Dog, can you please change all your 066 pistons to the more conventional 0.140" (3.6 mm) top land thickness, so we'll have a meaningful option to cut a pop-up ?

I felt like throwing the piston across the shop, but decided to shave the top land down to a risky 0.085" thick, for a 0.025" pop-up.

I used electrical solder to measure the profile of the chamber, and then wrote a CNC program to closely match the chamber profile.

Last time I used a 4-jaw chuck and it took me over an hour to zero the piston decently. This time I remembered that I had a 6 jaw chuck that might be well suited for holding a piston. Sure enough, the 6 jaw held the piston just fine. 0.001" run-out on the face, without even trying.
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Cutting the pop-up.
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The finished product, complete with wimpy top land.
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Once again the 10 cc syringe was used to measure the "zero squish" chamber volume. 9.5 cc, 9.2 cc, 9.3 cc, let's take an average and call it 9.3 cc, for a 1 cc reduction. That's pretty good for a 0.025" pop-up, because this time I did a better job of matching the chamber profile.

1cc is about 10% of the chamber volume, so it should produce a 10% increase in compression. The original BB only blew 123 - 130 psi, depending on its mood, so maybe now it will produce a whopping 143 psi. Woooo - hoooo !

Grande Dog, if you are reading this, the 1 cc smaller chamber on the 2nd generation BB is nice, but it needs to be more like 1.5 - 2 cc smaller, IMHO. Plus, the compression and mid-range power are hampered by excessive exhaust duration, so the roof of the exhaust port should be lowered, not raised, p*l*e*a*s*e.

And that's as far as I got tonight.
 
just curious.
how much would you have wanted to pop up?
Seriously ?

Well, for a milling saw, I'd like 160+ psi, don't you think ? But to blow 160 psi at my elevation, the saw would have to blow 186 psi at sea level. And when's the last time you heard of a 066 BB blowing 186 psi ? When's the last time an AS member reported any 066 blowing 186 psi ? The most I remember is 175 psi on one of the saws Brad wrote up, and that was very unusual.

So ......If the piston had a 0.140" top land, I would have shaved it down to 0.090", for a 0.050" pop up. That would have gained 2 cc or 20%, for an awesome 156 psi. :bang:

It's a struggle to get compression out of the 066 due to the radical exhaust timing.

This is a zero budget project, but if I had the money, I'd try to find a more conventional 56 mm piston and adapt it to this jug. I might have to either trim the skirts and/or chamfer the crankcase, but that wouldn't be so bad because it would eliminate the free port.
 
Port map of BB, allowing for pop-up, but no mods to ports yet.
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The BB has already been mapped by Martinm210, but I wanted to do it myself just so I could learn how.

Here is the calculator I used.

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I'm doing this in a rush because I gotta go walk the dog before it gets dark, but I'll double check the numbers tonight. Note the "42 degrees sub-piston induction" is a fancy way of saying the exhaust will free port big time.
 
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How about porting the top of the piston windows to help cool the crown?
I'm not familiar with that technique. Got pics ?

StumpStomper said:
I remember Tree Sling'r said he built an 066 with 180 or 185psi and he's at 3000' some ft in elevation.
It could be done with a big enough pop-up, or maybe even the rare jug that left the factory with an accidentally small chamber.
 
just curious.
how much would you have wanted to pop up?

Seriously ?

i think you misread me.
i was not questioning why you want more pop-up height. i only wanted to know how big you would have made it if you could.


on another note:
cheap compression tricks? replace the decomp with a pipe plug that threads in to the cylinder a bit reducing head volume. perhaps remove the crush ring from the sparkplug allowing it to protrude deeper in to the head. or use a hotter plug. the ceramic insulator protrudes deeper in to the cylinder than a cooler one.
 
Been looking for alternative 56mm pistons. Not a lot out there.

The 56mm Husky models use a 13mm pin, so that's out.

The Stihl 056 & 045 use a 56mm piston. Anyone know the specs ? Pin diameter ? Skirt width ? Distance pin center to top of piston ?
 
I'm not familiar with that technique. Got pics ?

It could be done with a big enough pop-up, or maybe even the rare jug that left the factory with an accidentally small chamber.

I get consistent 180-185PSI on 066/660s. .030 pop up, normally around .023-.025 squish.
I don't raise any ports though, so I guess one would say that I retard the stock timing.
 
I get consistent 180-185PSI on 066/660s. .030 pop up, normally around .023-.025 squish.
I don't raise any ports though, so I guess one would say that I retard the stock timing.
Thanks for the data.

2760 feet elevation, right ? That would be approximately 169 psi at my elevation, which would be awesome, but I'm not seeing how to get that much with the either this BB jug or the one OEM jug that I've played with.
 
Thanks for the data.

2760 feet elevation, right ? That would be approximately 169 psi at my elevation, which would be awesome, but I'm not seeing how to get that much with the either this BB jug or the one OEM jug that I've played with.

Pretty close to that in elevation. I use a cylinder plug as well, rather than a compression release. I dunno, maybe I am just lucky.
 
I'm not familiar with that technique. Got pics ?

Bob aka rmh3481 recommended that to me some time ago and I believe him. It helps in cooling the crown in theory.

Just remove material on top of the piston window and get it close to the bottom of the crown if you can. If not, go as far up as you can if there's room to port.

I have my stuff apart, I can show you. But you could probably see what I'm talking about when you take a look at your piston.
 
I mocked up a port map for the 2nd generation BB kit, based on Grande Dog's statement that the entire exhaust port will be raised 2mm. All other parameters are from a stock 1st gen BB, and may not reflect actual 2nd gen production specs. I only wanted to see the bad news for exhaust duration.

I'm a newbie to this port timing business, but doesn't high exhaust duration shift peak power to a higher rpm at the expense of midrange power ? Cuz that's exactly the opposite of what a milling saw should do.
timberwolf referring to OEM 660 port timing said:
The porting numbers on these new stihls is high, it did not seem right to me, tripple checked and it is indead that high. 660 is higher than the 460 yet at 180 deg. Thats higher than I would port a work saw, more where a stock appearing racer would be.

And that ain't nuthin compared to 187 degrees duration on the 2nd gen BB. :mad: Grande Dog ......... grrrrrr.

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I don't feel comfortable with this program deciding my No's.
Your measurements have to be so dead accurate, I just kept coming up with different No's to the point it just frustrated me.
I do like to use this program to punch in different figures to see what effect changes make to my No's though.
 

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