Poperty Wood Thinning Question

[madhatte]

I'm sure there's some control in place in any state to prevent any individual property owner from double-dipping into his own assets. However, I'm not at all sure that there's any controls preventing a group of property owners from spreading around both ecological and financial benefits. This will require research, to be sure, but it may be an unexplored market for small-scale agriforestry.

 

[ropensaddle]

Rope, I don't know if they would let you do the work yourself or not. Or if a similar program is available in your neck of the woods or not.
They don't let many land owners do their own here. I think they had some bad experiences in the past.
Around here the thinning is mostly of conifers, for fire prevention. But I do know that to recieve the grant you have to follow the foresters perscription. They're paying the bill, so they want the say on what goes.

Andy

That would be a killing factor for one, no one cuts but me on my land. Second if the plan consisted of turning the land to crap by cutting my oaks reducing my deer herd, the plan has no merit. I have seen what these foresters do to our national forests and do not agree with their prescriptions. You need mast and they act like they don't want nothing but pine. I know they are thinking dollars yield per acre and time but mature oaks are getting to be a endangered species in our national forest of today.

 

[ropensaddle]

On the same topic my stands are healthy but are real close together. My plan is to grow them in that state until near retirement then sell to the pole yard for power poles, which bring more than timber. We have a pole yard, I cut the damaged and leaner's, double heart, crooked or diseased everything else stays.

 

[madhatte]

Ah, but peelers bring more than poles. It's possible to have a multi-storied canopy and harvest both by deliberately suppressing some. Some of the nicest grain I've seen has been not in OG but in suppressed trees.

 

[floyd]

One thins to increase the value of the residual stand. If you are thinning to release then you are already too late. However if one just acquired the stand then that is your reference point. Deep, eh?

Don't expect to retire or make a living on your own ground from NCRS. It was 50-75% cost share when I took advantage of it. Worked out to $3.25/hr.


You know it's funny. Everyone always says hire a forester. Does anyone ever really hire one?

 

[slowp]

One thins to increase the value of the residual stand. If you are thinning to release then you are already too late. However if one just acquired the stand then that is your reference point. Deep, eh?

Don't expect to retire or make a living on your own ground from NCRS. It was 50-75% cost share when I took advantage of it. Worked out to $3.25/hr.


You know it's funny. Everyone always says hire a forester. Does anyone ever really hire one?

I'm not a real forester, but I help my friends for beer and hotdogs. Or pizza and beer. :smile-big:

 

[madhatte]

Beer is a universal currency, I think. A person can get a lot done with a couple six-packs and the right kind of friends!

 

[sdhershey]

Beer is a universal currency, I think. A person can get a lot done with a couple six-packs and the right kind of friends!

Well put, and totally true

 

[zogger]

What?

Another thing to look into is if there are any local, state or federal grants avialable for timber enhancement/fire reduction. I know things are different on the east coast but here in California this is a big thing. I have 20 acres of pine, cedar and brush. I recieved a grant from the National Resource Conservation Service (NRCS) to remove the brush and thin the trees to promote a better stand of timber and reduce the risk of fire. This is a federal program but I know that there are also state grants available. Of the 20 acres, I will be working on about 15 acres and will recieve about $18,000 once I am done. This is for hand thinning about 4 acres of dense pine and then thinning and brush removal on the rest. They also paid a couple thousand for a forester to draw up a timber management plan too. It is a heck of a deal since I was going to do the work anyways.

--no offense friend, but this is exactly the sort of thing needs to be cut out of the budget. Across the board, wasteful military spending, inner city welfare spending (I think multiple generations in a row is more than enough time to learn "get a job"), spending to pay farmers not to grow (we used to just buy surplus to use for actual real emergency food aid) or..pay homeowners to manage their own private woodlots?? Say whut?? Why should tax payers do this? We need to cut trillions from the budget to keep from going bust economically, our society destroyed, etc, and it all adds up. From the smallest unnecessqry expense to the largest, across the board..cut like crazy before it is too late.

Again, not ranking you personally, just wasn't aware of this deal and it sure sounds like something that doesn't need to happen on the tax payer's nickle.
I don't think folks out in the sticks need to be taxed to pay for..like subways...and folks in town don't need to be taxed to pay for..private woodlots. There's just way too much of this stuff that goes on, plus it always involves yet another huge government bureaucracy with legions of busywork jobs, then lifelong pensions for said jobs, etc. This just spend like crazy for everything under the sun is simply unsustainable.

Dang I don't want anyone here mad at me, but shazzam! It's in the headlines and stuff, we are about flat busted, to three or four generations out already.

 

[sdhershey]

--no offense friend, but this is exactly the sort of thing needs to be cut out of the budget. Across the board, wasteful military spending, inner city welfare spending (I think multiple generations in a row is more than enough time to learn "get a job"), spending to pay farmers not to grow (we used to just buy surplus to use for actual real emergency food aid) or..pay homeowners to manage their own private woodlots?? Say whut?? Why should tax payers do this? We need to cut trillions from the budget to keep from going bust economically, our society destroyed, etc, and it all adds up. From the smallest unnecessqry expense to the largest, across the board..cut like crazy before it is too late.

Again, not ranking you personally, just wasn't aware of this deal and it sure sounds like something that doesn't need to happen on the tax payer's nickle.
I don't think folks out in the sticks need to be taxed to pay for..like subways...and folks in town don't need to be taxed to pay for..private woodlots. There's just way too much of this stuff that goes on, plus it always involves yet another huge government bureaucracy with legions of busywork jobs, then lifelong pensions for said jobs, etc. This just spend like crazy for everything under the sun is simply unsustainable.

Dang I don't want anyone here mad at me, but shazzam! It's in the headlines and stuff, we are about flat busted, to three or four generations out already.

Real good point

 

[indiansprings]

Rope, here in MO, they will let you be your own contractor. They are cost sharing on planting trees for windbreaks, don't remember the exact figures but at the end you could put decent change in your pocket if you did it all yourself.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Getting a forester will save you time and alot of guesswork and no two foresters will mark the trees the same way.
As the owner though you can do it easily yourself. You want to select the more dominant trees of good form, leave them and cut the lower grade that are supressing them. Strive for an uneven aged stand with some species diversity.
Some voids in the stand are desireable, but in an ideal world dominant trees should have 5 ft. between crowns.
So maybe do an initial cleaning at first and then further down the road you can do a pre- commercial thinning and then a harvesting of some mature trees.
The whole thing may be a 10-20 year projection before it becomes lucritive, but it is well worth it. Try to avoid over cutting and leave a buffer strip around the edges of the stand to prevent the ravages of wind.
Most of all, have fun, plus, if done right it's just $ in the bank.
John

 

[madhatte]

Solid post. I'd rep you if I could. Agreed on all counts.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Solid post. I'd rep you if I could. Agreed on all counts.

Thanks madhatte. A few things I forgot to say is that anyone can thin and cut down trees, but the trick is to not damage the residual trees by debarking and busting up crowns of crop trees. Some damage is inevitable. It's the careless damage that must be avoided.
Think of the crop trees as cars parked in a Walmart parking lot. We don't bang into those,so try not to bang up the trees. Lol.
It's also ok to leave the odd 'goon tree' for wildlife, unless you don't like racoons and porcupines. Lol
With some mature hardwood you may be looking at a value of 500- 4500 each depending upon species and grade.
Timber is still the most valuable crop out there if managed right.
John

 

[redprospector]

--no offense friend, but this is exactly the sort of thing needs to be cut out of the budget. Across the board, wasteful military spending, inner city welfare spending (I think multiple generations in a row is more than enough time to learn "get a job"), spending to pay farmers not to grow (we used to just buy surplus to use for actual real emergency food aid) or..pay homeowners to manage their own private woodlots?? Say whut?? Why should tax payers do this? We need to cut trillions from the budget to keep from going bust economically, our society destroyed, etc, and it all adds up. From the smallest unnecessqry expense to the largest, across the board..cut like crazy before it is too late.

Again, not ranking you personally, just wasn't aware of this deal and it sure sounds like something that doesn't need to happen on the tax payer's nickle.
I don't think folks out in the sticks need to be taxed to pay for..like subways...and folks in town don't need to be taxed to pay for..private woodlots. There's just way too much of this stuff that goes on, plus it always involves yet another huge government bureaucracy with legions of busywork jobs, then lifelong pensions for said jobs, etc. This just spend like crazy for everything under the sun is simply unsustainable.

Dang I don't want anyone here mad at me, but shazzam! It's in the headlines and stuff, we are about flat busted, to three or four generations out already.

Zogger,
In most cases I would agree with you on cutting things like this to help with the budget.....................But..........................Around here the funding of private land thinning was put into practice because it's way cheaper to thin than to fight fires. Private land here is totaly surrounded by National Forest, so if a fire starts on private land it threatens the forest. On the other hand if a fire starts in the forest it threatens private property. In my opinion this is one of the few cost effective programs that the gubermint has put into practice.

Andy

 

[Gologit]

--no offense friend, but this is exactly the sort of thing needs to be cut out of the budget. Across the board, wasteful military spending, inner city welfare spending (I think multiple generations in a row is more than enough time to learn "get a job"), spending to pay farmers not to grow (we used to just buy surplus to use for actual real emergency food aid) or..pay homeowners to manage their own private woodlots?? Say whut?? Why should tax payers do this? We need to cut trillions from the budget to keep from going bust economically, our society destroyed, etc, and it all adds up. From the smallest unnecessqry expense to the largest, across the board..cut like crazy before it is too late.

Again, not ranking you personally, just wasn't aware of this deal and it sure sounds like something that doesn't need to happen on the tax payer's nickle.
I don't think folks out in the sticks need to be taxed to pay for..like subways...and folks in town don't need to be taxed to pay for..private woodlots. There's just way too much of this stuff that goes on, plus it always involves yet another huge government bureaucracy with legions of busywork jobs, then lifelong pensions for said jobs, etc. This just spend like crazy for everything under the sun is simply unsustainable.

Dang I don't want anyone here mad at me, but shazzam! It's in the headlines and stuff, we are about flat busted, to three or four generations out already.

It's a heck of lot cheaper than the suppression costs for a wildfire. A lot our timber land out here has a definite urban interface and thinning programs protect homeowners as well as landowners. It's a rare wildfire out here that doesn't burn some houses along with timber.

I'm a homeowner and a timber land owner as well. I like the program and I'd like to see more of it.

We appreciate your concern but you might be better advised to do some homework about our forestry and land concerns before you start running your mouth.

 

[hammerlogging]

Zogger, while your sentiments are understandable, I think you may have also failed to consider elements we look at here in the east. WHile our fire mitigation concerns pale in comparison to those of out west, TSI cost share does benefit our rural economies by encouraging the faster growth rate of sawlog thus encouraging rural manufacturing. Through the economic incentive of faster production of valuable forest products, more land is retained in forest for the benefit of all society via cleaner water, cleaner air and more wildlife habitat.

 

[floyd]

Then maybe you all should man up & spend your own money instead of our tax dollars. Bottom line the feds spend more than thay take in.

Something has to give. Why don't you start a trend & be personally responsible for your own ground.

 

[ropensaddle]

Then maybe you all should man up & spend your own money instead of our tax dollars. Bottom line the feds spend more than thay take in.

Something has to give. Why don't you start a trend & be personally responsible for your own ground.

Why don't all the banks pay back their bailout's few monies are paid to any middle class its high time the government puts more emphasis on we the people imo. I wonder how many of the people in foreclosed property could have made it if they were helped vrs banks? Now I am worried about ending up there with the economy the banks and rich power players manufactured. I get welfare is wasteful but things that benefit working class almost are non-existent why? Is it because the power is afraid of middle class being able to stand -up? Anyway; being a baby boomer I know I'm likely screwed out of all my paid in money to ss. I just anger thinking about it all.

 

[slowp]

Then maybe you all should man up & spend your own money instead of our tax dollars. Bottom line the feds spend more than thay take in.

Something has to give. Why don't you start a trend & be personally responsible for your own ground.

WE can but a lot of folks are clueless. I lived in NE Arizona where the clueless go for the Summer. Ponderosa Pine grows there, like a weed. There were big developments in the midst of the woods. You'd see sights like an extremely suppressed P Pine sapling trying to die, and a rope would be around it, propping it up to "save" it in a yard full of trees. The people had no clue.

Then the Rodeo Chadisky fire went through. You might want to look up how much that suppression cost.

Of course, fire suppression now supports many little communities that once were supported by timber harvests. But that's another discussion.

Thinning is cheap insurance. Where the forest had been logged and thinned, the Rodeo Chadisky fire laid down. Where the forest was left alone, it crowned out and got going. I wasn't there, but a forester friend said it did a nice underburn in the areas we commercially thinned. The Mexican Spotted Owl areas, which were off limits to log, were fried. Houses were burned-- the usual story.

I'm not sure if I'm spelling Chadisky right.