Secondary Burn

[Whitespider]

WS had a similar issue when he made his "Stovace", using a big blower to cool the stove off, especially after removing the firebrick.

Except... after removing the "stovace" from the basement, removing the plenum I built around it, removing the blower, replacing the firebrick, installing it with a 6" chimney running straight up and through the roof (no elbows)... NOTHING HAS CHANGED‼
Even as a full-fledged, un-modified, elitist stove; installed exactly per manufacturer recommendation... NOTHING HAS CHANGED‼
What-the-he!! is so hard to understand about this?? The blower had nothing to do with it, that's been eliminated as the cause.
Too damn many assumptions based on... ...I don't know what they're based on
Oh yeah... magic crystal balls and bu!!$h!t I guess
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[Del_]

Nothing has changed, but it isn't the STOVE!

 

[Del_]

Are you willing to back that up?? If that's where the "smart money" is, how much are you willing to put up??
Make it enough and I'll pay your air fare to come out here and show me how it's done... bring cash.
I'm serious you little chicken $h!t... how 'bout $10k??

What?? Not that sure of yourself?? You little weasel... $5k?? Bring cash... and your weasel warmer.
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Don't get all frustrated Spider.

There must be dozens of people who can't get heat out of a damn fine wood stoves.

Have a brewski!

 

[Del_]

I've got another $5k that says the chicken $h!t weasel never shows... any takers??
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I'd feel bad taking your money.


Put your money in a wood shed.

I don't mean put your money in the shed, I mean use it to build a shed for your firewood.

Thought I'd better explain before you came back complaining that the wood shed didn't do a damn thing and you never should have put your money in it.

.

 

[Locust Cutter]

That was pretty rude. I have the same problems as Spidey. Am Ian incompetent idiot as well? All of your posts say the same thing. I burn well seasoned wood in a clean appliance as slowly as possible. I have the same coaling issue that he and others do. I burn fairly small splits, 4"x4"-6"x6" at the max by about 18"long. It makes no difference loading N/S or E/W. Above 38-30° it runs like a champ. Under that it builds coals that eventually have to be removed, live. My wood isn't covered, but it sits inside the house (about 12' away from the stove) for a week before burning. What about any of this is idiotic?

 

[Chris-PA]

Except... after removing the "stovace" from the basement, removing the plenum I built around it, removing the blower, replacing the firebrick, installing it with a 6" chimney running straight up and through the roof (no elbows)... NOTHING HAS CHANGED‼
Even as a full-fledged, un-modified, elitist stove; installed exactly per manufacturer recommendation... NOTHING HAS CHANGED‼
What-the-he!! is so hard to understand about this?? The blower had nothing to do with it, that's been eliminated as the cause.
Too damn many assumptions based on... ...I don't know what they're based on
Oh yeah... magic crystal balls and bu!!$h!t I guess
*

I believe you said the shop is uninsulated. When the you have secondary combustion going and it is cold out, does it heat your shop well?

 

[Del_]

That was pretty rude. I have the same problems as Spidey. Am Ian incompetent idiot as well? All of your posts say the same thing. I burn well seasoned wood in a clean appliance as slowly as possible. I have the same coaling issue that he and others do. I burn fairly small splits, 4"x4"-6"x6" at the max by about 18"long. It makes no difference loading N/S or E/W. Above 38-30° it runs like a champ. Under that it builds coals that eventually have to be removed, live. My wood isn't covered, but it sits inside the house (about 12' away from the stove) for a week before burning. What about any of this is idiotic?

Nothing idiotic about it at all unless you extrapolate your experience to every wood stove that meets epa requirments ever made, like Spider has.

 

[Locust Cutter]

No I've seen to many good EPA stoves to hate them simply for their agency-derived moniker. I do agree with him that they;re not always the answer and I don't really care for my PE, but live and learn.

Spidey,
I'd love to have an indoor furnace, but it's not a possibility w/o a lot of re-engineering of my house. An OWB would be a lot easier to deal with. I would love to do an indoor furnace but some walls would have to change, a lot...

 

[Whitespider]

...does it heat your shop well?

Heat the shop well??
Let's say it's 40° outside (last weekend) and I go out to do a little work. I load the stove and fire it up... takes about 20-30 minutes before it's making good heat and the secondary is crankin'. Throttle it back and shop temperature rises about 10°-15° over the next 1-1½ hours or so (which I think ain't too bad from a cold start)... and then the secondary starts shuttin' down and shop temperature stops rising. About ½ hour later the shop temperature start droppin'. Well I don't wanna' lose what I've gained, so I walk over to the stove... and there's 4, maybe 5 inches of ashed-over coals in the bottom. So I grab the rake and stir 'em up... damnit, there's 3 splits under them coals that are only charred. I pull them up on top, open the throttle a bit, get some flame, and even a little more secondary... for maybe 10-15 minutes, then just a bed of ashed-over coals. So I stir them again and I'm pullin' dead, black charcoal from the bottom... bank them in front of the door and go wide open. Get a couple weak flames for a minute or two, then nothin'.

It's only 40° outside, it's been less than 3½ hours since cold start-up with a full load, I've got a bucket load of half-dead coals in the firebox, and I've lost nearly 5° in the shop over the last hour. Screw it... I shove more splits in there. About 1½ hours later it starts all over again... only now there's 7 or 8 inches of dead and half-dead coals in the box (but I have managed 65° in the shop). So, at this point, here's my choices...

1. I can sit there and babysit the box, stirring and raking the coals every 5-10 minutes (which means I ain't gonna' get anything else done).
2. I can grab the shovel and bucket, dump, reload.

When it's below 20° outside... you don't even wanna' know how much fuel I throw out.
I've even considered haulin' it in the house and dumpin' it in the furnace.

Oh... I'm burnin' elm, ash, Silver Maple and Cherry in the shop... split small(ish), like 3-5 inches. Yeah, it's 2 years seasoned and been stacked in the shop since first week of October.
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[stihl sawing]

WS, What's the deal. Stop using profanity in your post and calling names. I have told you to chill out in another thread. Why all the hostility all of a sudden. This is the internet, it don't matter what others think. But you need to stop with the name calling.

 

[Whitespider]

WS, What's the deal.

Awww.... I'm sorry man.
In a moment of weakness I let someone get under my skin just a bit... my bad, I'm human sometimes.
You're right... this is the internet... how many times have I said that??
I'm all cooled off now...

Anyway... apologies to everyone for my transgression.
*

 

[stihl sawing]

Awww.... I'm sorry man.
In a moment of weakness I let someone get under my skin just a bit... my bad, I'm human sometimes.
You're right... this is the internet... how many times have I said that??
I'm all cooled off now...

Anyway... apologies to everyone for my transgression.
*

Thank you sir.

 

[Chris-PA]

and there's 4, maybe 5 inches of ashed-over coals in the bottom. So I grab the rake and stir 'em up... damnit, there's 3 splits under them coals that are only charred.

In 2hrs? How could you possibly get 4-5" of coals in 2hrs without even burning much of 3 of the splits (which is probably about half the load)? I'm not sure how I could do that if I tried.

In general if it only raised the temp 10°-15° from 40° ambient at maximum output in 1-1/2hrs I seriously doubt the stove has the average output rate needed for that structure. The temperature in my basement is up over 20° and there is a large blower sucking all the warm air it can off the top of the room. It's been about 2hrs since I loaded it. Lots of wood left, and not buried under coals either.

Even totally discounting your "Stovace" installation, your stove clearly does not work the way you use it, and I have no idea if the design is capable of functioning properly or not (although I believe I've read here that others are happy with it). But the important point is that that kind of result is not typical of this type of stove at all. You like to claim your only point is that these stoves are not always the best for all situations - well fine. However, your continual repetition of such performance and your experience with the stove as if this were what people should of expect from all of them is what many find irritating. The personal experience of many of of us is nothing like yours - so much so that I and others find results like you described above to be fantastical. Again, I don't really know how I would make my stove generate 4-5" of coals in 2hrs if I tried to.

 

[brenndatomu]

and there's 4, maybe 5 inches of ashed-over coals in the bottom.

That is just really odd...I have never had that issue...

less than 3½ hours since cold start-up with a full load, I've got a bucket load of half-dead coals in the firebox,

You need to take them lemons and...well you know the rest. I can see it now, hang a shingle "Spiders charcoal and charcoal delivery services"

 

[Whitespider]

How could you possibly get 4-5" of coals in 2hrs without even burning much of 3 of the splits (which is probably about half the load)?

More like ¼ of the load (or even a tad less)... I can easily get a dozen of those small splits in a cleaned-out firebox.
And remember... the 4-5 inches of coals included the buried splits (or was estimated before the splits were pulled out).

...as if this were what people should of expect from all of them is what many find irritating.

I don't recall tellin' anyone what to expect.
I'm not, and have not been, the only one complaining of such issues over the last couple years... with several breeds of stoves. As well, like I said, I personally know of others locally that do the same thing to greater or lesser degrees. The fact that many are extremely happy (which I've never denied) leads me to the conclusion that they just flat ain't the appropriate choice for everyone, under all conditions. I've never claimed anything more than that... it's the other side of the argument that claims they're always, without fail, more better. Which is ridiculous when talkin' 'bout anything... there ain't no such thing as a be-all-to-end-all, for anything. Heck, if that was the case we'd all be running radial tires

Although, I won't concede the elitist stoves are the best they could be... at the end of the day, they're still bound by regulatory limits.
I ain't stating it as fact they ain't the best they could be... I just ain't conceding they are... I'm a realist.

To make that a bit clearer... I'm bettin' there's something between the classic smoke dragon and the "regulated" elitist stoves that would be, over all, more better.

I don't really know how I would make my stove generate 4-5" of coals in 2hrs if I tried to.

Imagine how frustrating it is when you try not to...
*

 

[mn woodcutter]

In 2hrs? How could you possibly get 4-5" of coals in 2hrs without even burning much of 3 of the splits (which is probably about half the load)? I'm not sure how I could do that if I tried.

In general if it only raised the temp 10°-15° from 40° ambient at maximum output in 1-1/2hrs I seriously doubt the stove has the average output rate needed for that structure. The temperature in my basement is up over 20° and there is a large blower sucking all the warm air it can off the top of the room. It's been about 2hrs since I loaded it. Lots of wood left, and not buried under coals either.

Even totally discounting your "Stovace" installation, your stove clearly does not work the way you use it, and I have no idea if the design is capable of functioning properly or not (although I believe I've read here that others are happy with it). But the important point is that that kind of result is not typical of this type of stove at all. You like to claim your only point is that these stoves are not always the best for all situations - well fine. However, your continual repetition of such performance and your experience with the stove as if this were what people should of expect from all of them is what many find irritating. The personal experience of many of of us is nothing like yours - so much so that I and others find results like you described above to be fantastical. Again, I don't really know how I would make my stove generate 4-5" of coals in 2hrs if I tried to.

I don't understand that either! This is my PE stove after day 3 of burning 24/7. I will be dumping the ash after it burns down a bit more but it's still pumping out enough heat to feel from over 10 ft away! That little stove is one of the best purchases I've ever made! However, I've had times where I have had some serious charcoal build up and I have attributed it to wood species and over loading. It's a rare occasion.

 

[Ronaldo]

Heat the shop well??
Let's say it's 40° outside (last weekend) and I go out to do a little work. I load the stove and fire it up... takes about 20-30 minutes before it's making good heat and the secondary is crankin'. Throttle it back and shop temperature rises about 10°-15° over the next 1-1½ hours or so (which I think ain't too bad from a cold start)... and then the secondary starts shuttin' down and shop temperature stops rising. About ½ hour later the shop temperature start droppin'. Well I don't wanna' lose what I've gained, so I walk over to the stove... and there's 4, maybe 5 inches of ashed-over coals in the bottom. So I grab the rake and stir 'em up... damnit, there's 3 splits under them coals that are only charred. I pull them up on top, open the throttle a bit, get some flame, and even a little more secondary... for maybe 10-15 minutes, then just a bed of ashed-over coals. So I stir them again and I'm pullin' dead, black charcoal from the bottom... bank them in front of the door and go wide open. Get a couple weak flames for a minute or two, then nothin'.

It's only 40° outside, it's been less than 3½ hours since cold start-up with a full load, I've got a bucket load of half-dead coals in the firebox, and I've lost nearly 5° in the shop over the last hour. Screw it... I shove more splits in there. About 1½ hours later it starts all over again... only now there's 7 or 8 inches of dead and half-dead coals in the box (but I have managed 65° in the shop). So, at this point, here's my choices...

1. I can sit there and babysit the box, stirring and raking the coals every 5-10 minutes (which means I ain't gonna' get anything else done).
2. I can grab the shovel and bucket, dump, reload.

When it's below 20° outside... you don't even wanna' know how much fuel I throw out.
I've even considered haulin' it in the house and dumpin' it in the furnace.

Oh... I'm burnin' elm, ash, Silver Maple and Cherry in the shop... split small(ish), like 3-5 inches. Yeah, it's 2 years seasoned and been stacked in the shop since first week of October.
*

With results like you explain......I cant help but think there is something with your particular stove that is not working properly.?????

 

[Oxford]

You are absolutely correct, Ronaldo, there is something with the stove that's not working correctly.

The operator.

 

[Whitespider]

At one point, when it was in the basement of the house, I thought the problem might be this...

http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm

...and it still may be part of the problem. But now it's in a single story building with a short chimney (shrug)
I've watched it... the secondary shoots jets of flame down into the wood, burning the top into ash and coals that basically smother everything underneath. After that the air just flows over the top of the ashed-over coals (hence my opinion that air coming in from the top is stupid). Experience has taught me that air coming from under the fire, and flowing up through the coal bed, keeps them screamin' friggin' hot, burns the bottom coals first, causing the ash to fall through the grate, which exposes the next layer of coals above to the air flow. How can it possibly be "better" to pass the air over the top of the coal bed, turning the upper layer to ash, thereby limiting or eliminating air from getting to the lower coals?? In my mind, that's just backazzwards... and it sure can't make them burn near as hot (longer yeah, but not near as hot).

OK, secondary combustion makes a lot of heat... I've never denied that.
It's what happens after the secondary shuts down that I find idiotic. I'd much rather have a more even heat throughout the burn than the early nuclear blast followed by luke-warm coffee.
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[Whitespider]

...there is something with the stove that's not working correctly.
The operator.

Oh goody... he's back...
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