Secondary Burn

[slowp]

The big advantage of non fanned, non powered wood stoves--communist or not, is that when the power goes off, I don't have to go out and fiddle with a generator to keep the house warm.

I don't get this coals are bad argument. I always thought that coals are what you hoped you had in the morning, because they made getting the wood stove going in the morning easier. That was when I had a pre elitist stove, an Earth Stove, in a cold climate. You loaded it up, went to bed, and hoped for coals in the morning so there would be no kindling and newspaper needed. The climate I live in now is not as severe, although burning season can be longer.

Was I wrong? One hopes for ashes in the morning? Or fire still flaming away?

 

[Locust Cutter]

Sadly, I'm not. More power with less fuel using smaller engines is what I've done for much of a lifetime. There are threads as long as this one on automotive forums for BSFC and related topics.


The secondary burners don't do as well as cat stoves. The cat stove gasifies wood in the box and uses the reaction in the catalytic converter to produce most of the heat. If yours is a catalytic stove and it needs fuel more frequently than a similar model in another home, that seems to indicate your heating need is at the higher end of the stove's output.

Mine isn't a cat stove. I came close to buying a CAT stove after seeing my friend's VC Encore in action. It WILL hold a fire for 6-8 hours on a load, or 8-10 on a full load of Hedge. I just didn't want to have to deal with cleaning/replacing cats. I'm glad that the P.E. stove works well for the other guy and mine works really well sometimes, but other times, not so much.

 

[Locust Cutter]

The big advantage of non fanned, non powered wood stoves--communist or not, is that when the power goes off, I don't have to go out and fiddle with a generator to keep the house warm.

I don't get this coals are bad argument. I always thought that coals are what you hoped you had in the morning, because they made getting the wood stove going in the morning easier. That was when I had a pre elitist stove, an Earth Stove, in a cold climate. You loaded it up, went to bed, and hoped for coals in the morning so there would be no kindling and newspaper needed. The climate I live in now is not as severe, although burning season can be longer.

Was I wrong? One hopes for ashes in the morning? Or fire still flaming away?

Neither actually. Coals are a blessing in the am to wake up to. What Spider and I are miffed by is that the PE fireboxes when burned constantly build up an entire box full of coals in short order (compared to older stoves). When this happens you lose 1/2 - 2/3 of your effective heat output. You have to options at this point. Either a: let the coals burn down to ashes, or b: shovel out hot burning coals in order to make room for new logs and actual usable heat output. I love having a stove which requires no electricity. I just don't like carrying live coals out of the house in order to continue burning...

 

[slowp]

Neither actually. Coals are a blessing in the am to wake up to. What Spider and I are miffed by is that the PE fireboxes when burned constantly build up an entire box full of coals in short order (compared to older stoves). When this happens you lose 1/2 - 2/3 of your effective heat output. You have to options at this point. Either a: let the coals burn down to ashes, or b: shovel out hot burning coals in order to make room for new logs and actual usable heat output. I love having a stove which requires no electricity. I just don't like carrying live coals out of the house in order to continue burning...

Maybe it is a hardwood thing? I don't have that happening here. The only hardwoods I burn are our native maple and red alder. I mix that with Doug-fir, which is the favorite wood to burn in these parts.

 

[Whitespider]

The big advantage of non fanned, non powered wood stoves... when the power goes off, I don't have to go out and fiddle with a generator...
You loaded it up, went to bed, and hoped for coals in the morning so there would be no kindling and newspaper needed.

I wouldn't need a generator either... I built a plenum on top of the air jacket that connects into the ducting. With the return air return system, convection will carry the heat up into living space and cold air to the furnace. It would just take a bit longer to raise the temperature of the house... pretty much the same as using a stove in the basement.

Still, I have a generator for power outages... and I'd fire it up anyway if the power goes out. I mean... there's a he!!-of-a-lot more than the furnace to consider when the power goes out.

Newspaper and kindling??
This is the 21st century, ya' know?? Who-the-he!! still uses newspaper and kindling?? Are you also rubbin' two sticks together??
*

 

[Ambull01]

I wouldn't need a generator either... I built a plenum on top of the air jacket that connects into the ducting. With the return air return system, convection will carry the heat up into living space and cold air to the furnace. It would just take a bit longer to raise the temperature of the house... pretty much the same as using a stove in the basement.

Still, I have a generator for power outages... and I'd fire it up anyway if the power goes out. I mean... there's a he!!-of-a-lot more than the furnace to consider when the power goes out.

Newspaper and kindling??
This is the 21st century, ya' know?? Who-the-he!! still uses newspaper and kindling?? Are you also rubbin' two sticks together??
*

What do you use to start a fire? Super Cedars?

 

[513yj]

I don't get this coals are bad argument. I always thought that coals are what you hoped you had in the morning, because they made getting the wood stove going in the morning easier. That was when I had a pre elitist stove, an Earth Stove, in a cold climate. You loaded it up, went to bed, and hoped for coals in the morning so there would be no kindling and newspaper needed. The climate I live in now is not as severe, although burning season can be longer.

Was I wrong? One hopes for ashes in the morning? Or fire still flaming away?

I love coals in the morning to get my fire going but they don't do what I want when I'm awake and it's really cold out. Coals do not keep the temperature in my house where I want it when it's -35 to -40 outside not counting the wind like it was last winter. But, you probably don't get the temps over there like we do here. As I posted last winter I have to stir and babysit the coals like a drunken Toronto mayor in order to keep it 70* inside when it's -20 and colder outside.

 

[zogger]

Neither actually. Coals are a blessing in the am to wake up to. What Spider and I are miffed by is that the PE fireboxes when burned constantly build up an entire box full of coals in short order (compared to older stoves). When this happens you lose 1/2 - 2/3 of your effective heat output. You have to options at this point. Either a: let the coals burn down to ashes, or b: shovel out hot burning coals in order to make room for new logs and actual usable heat output. I love having a stove which requires no electricity. I just don't like carrying live coals out of the house in order to continue burning...

Well, there's coals, then just ashes. using a scoop made to sift the ashes but retain the coals, you could have two containers, one for the real ash, the other for coals, then throw the coals back on some fresh splits?

Now, I don't know if they make this thing for woodstoves, but something that looks and works like a kitty litter scoop, but designed for hot wood coals. I know grates are *supposed* to do that. If they don't, maybe the spacing is too wide.

Other than that, no idea, my dragon just builds up stuff in the bottom, stir it around, get the coals back to the top, let it burn another hour, and then shovel it out every few days or as needed. In the morning if not going to clean it out, I get any unburnt stuff back up to the top, then lay on little stuff and maybe some cardboard, back to burning within minutes.

I don't expect to get an all night hot full burn, but I always can get enough hot coals remaining to restart it easily. Sometimes I will throw another chunk in in the middle of the night, sometimes not, usually only when it is, for here, quite cold, will I do that, and/or open the top lid and fit in something big that barely fits..

 

[Whitespider]

What do you use to start a fire? Super Cedars?

Well, first of all, except for a few early season fires, I rarely haf'ta "start" a fire in the furnace... there's near always enough coals to just toss some wood in the box.
But when I do "start" a fire (and I've posted this several times)... I load the box with full-size splits, grab a golf ball size tuft of clothes dryer lint (wife shoves it in a coffee can), poke it between a couple bottom splits, squirt with a tablespoon or so of liquid fire accelerant (diesel, fuel oil, charcoal fluid, kerosene, whatever), flick the Bic (I use the long "grill lighter" Bic), and shut the door. The lint acts like a wick, burns long and hot. That procedure has worked with every wood-fired appliance I've ever used. No fuss, no muss, no kindling, no paper, no screwin' 'round, no time involved... KISS ‼

...I have to stir and babysit the coals like a drunken Toronto mayor...

Been there, done that, it sucks... never again, ever‼
*

 

[Cerran]

Blind denial is amazing...
Why is it so friggin' hard to believe that the elitist technology just flat ain't always the best choice for every application under all conditions??
Why is itt so friggin' hard to believe that there ain't any be-all-to-end-all... why is it so friggin' hard to believe not every latest 'n' greatest thing is "best" for every application??
Why ain't all ovens of microwave technology?? Microwave is more efficient??
Why is it, in this day 'n' age of cell phones and other forms of digital, instantaneous communications... I still sell and install dozens of analog business-band two-way radios and repeaters every year?? Heck, near all law enforcement and emergency responders ('round here) still rely on the same basic 90-year-old technology... and digital two-way has been available for years‼
Why ain't GPS technology eliminated the magnetic compass??
Do you remember the "new" Coke-Cola??
Do you have power disc brakes on your lawn tractor?? Power steering on your motorcycle??
Why ain't there a wind turbine and solar panels on the roof of every house?? And Geo-thermal under the yard (which is now most certainly AstroTurf)??
Does most of your OPE still start via a pull cord?? Really??
Please don't tell me you're still using a key to unlock your house door?? I'll bet you even use kindling to start a fire also... geezzz‼
Do you still stop at the gas pump?? You are aware there's electric cars now... correct?? Well, no doubt, all of your internal combustion engines are at least capable of using E85 I'm sure??
Did you use a keyboard to make your last post?? What?‼? You do know you can just speak to the computer now??
By-the-way... are you lovin' that new 3-D printer??
No doubt you've installed a fire sprinkler system in your house, and an elevator... or at least an escalator?? C'mon man, they've been 'round for decades‼
Every appliance, everything plugged into your wall outlets is "Energy Star" rated??
All of your light switches have been replaced with motion sensors?? They haven't?? What??
You've purchased satellite radio for all your vehicles... and your home?? And please don't tell me your TV signal, telephone, internet, and whatnot still enters your home via a wire or cable.
Can you believe people still pay for a printed newspaper?? Heck, I know people still purchasing postage stamps... can you believe it?? And on top of that that... they actually write checks, or even use cash‼
I actually saw a guy shoveling snow off his sidewalk the other day‼ (I think it was the same guy I saw raking leaves a couple months ago.)

Should I go on??
*

Nice deflection. Did you season the wood or not?

The only time I could see the older stoves being better is if you wanted to burn green wood which you aren't supposed to do anyway.

Your analogies are flawed, it would be like using carburetors when fuel injection is available for a typical day to day application which is what this is.

 

[NSMaple1]

I use newspapers & kindling. Gotta dispose of the newspapers somehow anyway.

I also light a new fire every day.

There's a lot of cross-speaking going on in this thread, comparing apples to oranges all over the place. Smoker furnace vs. elitist stove, bad smoker vs. good elitist, bad elitist vs. good smoker. Pretty hard to compare a furnace to a stove to start with, or a well designed smoker to a poorly designed elitist.

I've got a gasifying boiler. (Elitist?). It replaced a smoker boiler (wood/oil combo) 2 1/2 years ago. There is no comparison in the heat output between them, in both how efficient they burn and how much heat they get out of that before it hits the chimney. I used to have to clean the chimney 4 times a year, tend the boiler every 2-3 hours, haul out lots of hot coals on the real cold days, and handle more wood. And the oil kicked in once in a while. Now, I haven't cleaned my chimney since the new one was fired up, I only have a fire actually burning between 6 & 12 hours a day (12 is the very coldest winter days), no coals to deal with (they all burn up), burn less wood, and the house is a lot warmer. And we don't have an oil tank any more. The old one didn't have an output rating on the wood side - but I would confidently estimate it to be half of the new one.

That's my old tech smoker vs. new tech elitist experience - I wouldn't go back to the old tech for anything, even if I do have to make a new fire every day. But it's not a stove, one size does not fit all, and situations & experiences vary - so I won't attempt to convince someone that they're wrong about theirs.

 

[Whitespider]

Nice deflection. Did you season the wood or not?

There ain't no deflection here... there's been at least a dozen threads on my "stovace" (as it was nicknamed) over the last couple years. All of your questions have been asked and answered at least twice, if not a dozen times (plus several you ain't got to yet). We've been through all of your suggestions and diagnosis at least twice, if not a dozen times (plus several you ain't got to yet). Just ask brenndatomu, zogger, and several other members I could mention, they've been in on every thread one way or another.

I would suggest you do a search for "stovace" and bring yourself up to speed.

But to answer your question... yes, the wood was 2 and 3 year seasoned... the stuff I'm burning in it out in the shop now is 5 years seasoned.
*

 

[Chris-PA]

I love coals in the morning to get my fire going but they don't do what I want when I'm awake and it's really cold out. Coals do not keep the temperature in my house where I want it when it' -35 to -40 outside not counting the wind like it was last winter. But, you probably don't get the temps over there like we do here. As I posted last winter I have to stir and babysit the coals like a drunken Toronto mayor in order to keep it 70* inside when it's -20 and colder outside.

A secondary burn stove has a heat output profile that peaks towards the first part of the cycle while the secondaries are burning and then tails off as the volatile compounds are cooked off. Without the secondary combustion much of that energy would have gone up the stack in the form of carbon bonds with other elements, and the heat output rate would be lower for a stove of similar size, but instead it is released into the stove where it can be transferred into the living space. How long the tail end of the burn lasts depends on many things, like what wood you burn, how it is arranged in the firebox, how far open the damper is, stove design etc.

I think that the problem is that stove manufacturers quote peak outputs which (if they are even truthful at all) reflect the peak during secondary burn, which is much higher than a traditional stove. Then after the secondary burn the output is much lower. So these stoves have a greater difference between peak and average output, so if you go by the peak then the stove may be too small. Then if it is -35 out and you need a greater average output rate, waiting for the coals to burn will be a problem. That's not a stove design problem, it is primarily an application problem because the appliance cannot generate the average output rate needed.

What would be the solution? Burn wood faster, leave no coals and reload more often. There's no free ride. I suppose if you could switch to a bottom flow air intake after secondary burn is finished that would help keep the output higher and prevent the build up of coals. My stove effectively does this if I open the primary inlet before it is a solid bed of coals and have arranged the wood properly (end on to the door at the bottom).

 

[nathon918]

There ain't no deflection here... there's been at least a dozen threads on my "stovace" (as it was nicknamed) over the last couple years. All of your questions have been asked and answered at least twice, if not a dozen times (plus several you ain't got to yet). We've been through all of your suggestions and diagnosis at least twice, if not a dozen times (plus several you ain't got to yet). Just ask brenndatomu, zogger, and several other members I could mention, they've been in on every thread one way or another.

I would suggest you do a search for "stovace" and bring yourself up to speed.

But to answer your question... yes, the wood was 2 and 3 year seasoned... the stuff I'm burning in it out in the shop now is 5 years seasoned.
*

must have used a moisture meter...no?.........

 

[slowp]

You ridicule starting a fire with newpaper and kindling? Getting desperate? Newspaper is free for the taking, kindling needs no explanation. No spending money on whatever you squirt in there, and I don't have to deal with dryer lint. But, whatever...things must be boring around there.

I'm letting the stove go out right now. It's too warm to have a fire. When I need to, I'll get out the primitive newspaper, which will be in the Post Office and grocery store today--free for the taking, and sigh, thinking what an inferior a method I use.

Back to hot tub cleaning. We've got a little weather thing coming this way and I might need the water. No generator needed.

 

[1project2many]

Neither actually. Coals are a blessing in the am to wake up to. What Spider and I are miffed by is that the PE fireboxes when burned constantly build up an entire box full of coals in short order (compared to older stoves). When this happens you lose 1/2 - 2/3 of your effective heat output. You have to options at this point. Either a: let the coals burn down to ashes, or b: shovel out hot burning coals in order to make room for new logs and actual usable heat output. I love having a stove which requires no electricity. I just don't like carrying live coals out of the house in order to continue burning...

Hmmm... I don't have this problem. At least not in the house stove. That stove provides more than enough heat for the house so when secondary stops and coals are present in any quantity we're usually good for a bit.

Coals burn at a greater temperature than the light gases that come out during reburn but if you can't get enough air to the fuel you're not going to get rapid combustion. The barn stove may consistently exhibit this problem... we'll see. As I said, right now I add Poplar or Basswood to the top of the coals and go for full on secondary burning and that seems to take the coals down fairly quickly. I can say the house stove, an Englander, seems to do a better job of providing air to the coals at the bottom of the stove than the barn stove. Rake them to the front, open the air control about 1/2 way, watch them glow brightly. Airflow inside the barn stove (brand sold by Lowes?) is different, for certain.

And yes, this anecdotal evidence does suggest to me that running some of these stoves at max heat output may lead to problems.

Well, there's coals, then just ashes. using a scoop made to sift the ashes but retain the coals, you could have two containers, one for the real ash, the other for coals, then throw the coals back on some fresh splits?

Now, I don't know if they make this thing for woodstoves, but something that looks and works like a kitty litter scoop, but designed for hot wood coals. I know grates are *supposed* to do that. If they don't, maybe the spacing is too wide.

I built one using stainless steel rod, some stainless sheet, and 1/4 screen. It's about the size of a house dustpan. I'll try to snap a picture this evening if there's any interest.

 

[Ambull01]

Well, first of all, except for a few early season fires, I rarely haf'ta "start" a fire in the furnace... there's near always enough coals to just toss some wood in the box.
But when I do "start" a fire (and I've posted this several times)... I load the box with full-size splits, grab a golf ball size tuft of clothes dryer lint (wife shoves it in a coffee can), poke it between a couple bottom splits, squirt with a tablespoon or so of liquid fire accelerant (diesel, fuel oil, charcoal fluid, kerosene, whatever), flick the Bic (I use the long "grill lighter" Bic), and shut the door. The lint acts like a wick, burns long and hot. That procedure has worked with every wood-fired appliance I've ever used. No fuss, no muss, no kindling, no paper, no screwin' 'round, no time involved... KISS ‼


Been there, done that, it sucks... never again, ever‼
*

Oh, thought you had some super high tech way to keep in step with the 21st century. I'll have to try dryer lint.

 

[Chris-PA]

Corporations spend millions or billions of dollars a year to print and send me loads of paper crap that I never read. Why would I look further? With wood properly arranged for the particular stove (the little one upstairs needs something quite different from the other one, and it took my a while to figure that out) it only takes a minute or two to re-kindle the fire. Especially if there are still coals.

And with a small bellows I often don't need a lighter at all.

 

[513yj]

I suppose if you could switch to a bottom flow air intake after secondary burn is finished that would help keep the output higher and prevent the build up of coals.

My sentiment exactly.

 

[Locust Cutter]

Maybe it is a hardwood thing? I don't have that happening here. The only hardwoods I burn are our native maple and red alder. I mix that with Doug-fir, which is the favorite wood to burn in these parts.

I think there's some merit to that statement. Burning pure Hedge, my stove doesn't do very well. If I mix in some Cedar, Pine, Ash or Silver Maple with the Hedge, it does a lot better. I think it has to do with airflow. A bottom feed after the secondary shutoff would be fantastic.

Well, there's coals, then just ashes. using a scoop made to sift the ashes but retain the coals, you could have two containers, one for the real ash, the other for coals, then throw the coals back on some fresh splits?

Now, I don't know if they make this thing for woodstoves, but something that looks and works like a kitty litter scoop, but designed for hot wood coals. I know grates are *supposed* to do that. If they don't, maybe the spacing is too wide.

Other than that, no idea, my dragon just builds up stuff in the bottom, stir it around, get the coals back to the top, let it burn another hour, and then shovel it out every few days or as needed. In the morning if not going to clean it out, I get any unburnt stuff back up to the top, then lay on little stuff and maybe some cardboard, back to burning within minutes.

I don't expect to get an all night hot full burn, but I always can get enough hot coals remaining to restart it easily. Sometimes I will throw another chunk in in the middle of the night, sometimes not, usually only when it is, for here, quite cold, will I do that, and/or open the top lid and fit in something big that barely fits..

Having useful coals in the morning isn't a problem. There are sometimes weeks where the firebox never gets cold (even if the coals go out and I clean it out to re-light it). When I say the firebox gets full, I mean 6-11" depth of live, glowing coals across the entire firebox. Factoring in the baffle height, that effectively eliminates feed any more wood in. The stove is obviously throwing heat at this point, but is a lot less than when active primary and secondary combustion is taking place.