Small chimney fire tonight

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So my question is why are chimney fires a problem? i have the silica lined double wall pipe is this maybe why i didn't have "problems" ?

If you have a good chimney, it's not.

But you can find chimney with no liners or cracks in the liner in them that let creosote flow out. Resembles roofing asphalt when it's oozing out. The fire can burn along that and get into the wood structure.

Wood that is in contact with the chimney that has pyrolized (a chemical breakdown that makes it prone to ignite at very low temps without direct flame exposure) over years of exposure to heat and the extra heat from the fire is enough to ignite it.

Folks who used tin cans filled with concrete to seal up an old hole, and now the metal conducts the heat out and ignites wood furring strips they put up when hanging new sheetrock over the old chimney.
 
I always keep a garden hose in my basement just in case of such a problem. I can turn on the water in the basement and then head upstairs and out the door where I can spray my roof or the surrounding area. Hopefully this won't be necessary, but it's nice to be prepared.
 
I can turn on the water in the basement and then head upstairs and out the door where I can spray my roof or the surrounding area. Hopefully this won't be necessary, but it's nice to be prepared.

You're more likely to need it inside in case the fire gets into the partition (void in the walls).

I haven't seen many chimney fires throwing a lot of sparks. High flames, yes. But creosote doesn't throw many if any sparks. You're also usually in winter time which is typically higher moisture (snow on ground, etc) so you don't have tinder dry conditions that the grass or something would ignite easily even if a spark got thrown.

Creosote will flame up surprisingly vigorously if you remove it hot from the clean out. We have metal buckets with lids and the sometimes you need to throw lid on to cover the flames :D What's removed goes outside, we like to find a garden or something, and dump it there. Often needs someone with a water extinguisher to spritz it down as we dump to stop the flaming action.

I do like the idea of keeping a garden hose (3/4" with a good "fire style" nozzle like this one: Shop Gilmour Metal fireman's twist nozzle w/comfort grip at Lowes.com ) hooked up to the water tank.

Have enough hose to reach anywhere in your hose, and all the way around the outside so you can spray down shrubs and such. Having an extension ladder stored easily accessible, and some small implement of destruction (a 6# maul or so) would be handy too.
 
Why not just stop up the top of the chimney? That ought to kill the fire in very short order and is much less invasive of the house.

First, you don't stop up the top of the chimney. It will cause the smoke / heat to back down into the house -- causing far more damage. If the chimney is compromised it will also force the fire out of cracks and such and into the walls.

You want the top open so fire and smoke follows the path of least resistance -- up and out.

You do want to stop oxygen entering the chimney by closing the dampers, at least until you're ready to deal with the flames with extinguishing agents.

There are several schools of thought within the fire service how to handle chimney fires.

Some are knock it down and forget. They'll do something like only shoot a dry chemical extinguisher up the chimney and if it looks like the smoke stopped then leave.

I do not believe in those, because it leaves hot, smoldering material still in the chimney. That's ignoring basic firemanship by failing to overhaul the scene to assure it won't re-kindle. A worse case would be a crack in the chimney that had allowed melted creosote out. The extinguisher may have knocked the surface flames down, the smoldering fire underneath follows the creosote out through the crack and into the walls. Oh-dark-thirty you're back because there's now flames coming out the attic.

(There will be the exceptional fire from time to time, such as a chimney utterly inaccessibly by height, ice conditions, structural instability, etc you may need to compromise, but those are not normal situations.)

If we throw our whole play book at a fire -- and not all of them get the the full treatment -- you'd typically see:

1) A Chief officer arriving ahead of the apparatus will use a Chimfex flare in the woodstove, close the dampers. They'll go upstairs and feel the walls and smell. They'll go to the basement and see the situation there. Are there special issues like a furnace (illegally) using the same flu? (This can cause concerns about CO poisoning if they use the furnace and there's been damage to the chimney...and leaving a house without heat in winter if bitterly cold brings up a whole host of issues from draining pipes to arranging for alternate shelter with family or Red Cross if necessary).

2) House will be laddered. Hopefully our aerial could fit in the driveway, otherwise it's old school. If there is still active fire in the chimney, the dry chemical in ziplock bag "chimney bombs" will be tossed down till the flames stop (cheaper then Chimfex).

Crew on the roof uses old car mirrors -- salvaged from our extrication drills -- too look down the chimney without directly looking down it.

3) Salvage covers will be unrolled over the carpet from the front door to the woodstove area to minimize tracking in dirt and ashes onto the carpet.

Someone takes a Thermal Imager and checks the walls to see if there is any extension. Find the scuttle to the attic and pop it open and look for smoke.

4) Woodstove is emptied. This stops pumping up the heat from the woodstove. Dispose of wood & ashes outside, on the garden if there is one or else lawn.

5) Open the clean out in the basement. Shovel out any creosote there already.

6) Shine a flashlight up the chimney from the clean out while a crew on the roof is looking down. Often have a mirror in the basement, too. Trying to see how plugged up the chimney is.

7) Crew on roof starts using a set of chains (old truck chains on a lighter chain used to move them up and down ) to knock the creosote to the clean out.

Shovel this into a bucket, it'll often flare back up once exposed to fresh air.

Dump it where you dumped the woodstove contents. Wet down with a pressurized water extinguisher as necessary to keep it from flaming. If there's no snow on the ground, might need to use a hoseline to soak it and the area around it at the end.

Keep working the chains until the chimney is clean. By this point you can usually look down from the top directly, wearing a mask of course, with a flashlight and see the flue is square (or round) without masses of creosote still clinging.

If there was no extension to the walls during the fire, and we've removed all the creosote from the chimney we know for certain we won't be back tonight for a worse fire. Situation is completely safe.

8) Take another look for extension. At least put your head up in the attic to look at the chimney even if you don't crawl to it; if you see anything odd or discolored or worrisome, check it out. Feel the walls on all floor all around the chimney that they don't feel hot.

9) Advise the homeowner to hire a chimney professional to inspect the chimney for any damage prior to using their woodstove again.

10) Roll up our salvage cover runners on the carpet on the way out, have a nice evening.
 
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You're more likely to need it inside in case the fire gets into the partition (void in the walls).

I haven't seen many chimney fires throwing a lot of sparks. High flames, yes. But creosote doesn't throw many if any sparks. You're also usually in winter time which is typically higher moisture (snow on ground, etc) so you don't have tinder dry conditions that the grass or something would ignite easily even if a spark got thrown.

Creosote will flame up surprisingly vigorously if you remove it hot from the clean out. We have metal buckets with lids and the sometimes you need to throw lid on to cover the flames :D What's removed goes outside, we like to find a garden or something, and dump it there. Often needs someone with a water extinguisher to spritz it down as we dump to stop the flaming action.

I do like the idea of keeping a garden hose (3/4" with a good "fire style" nozzle like this one: Shop Gilmour Metal fireman's twist nozzle w/comfort grip at Lowes.com ) hooked up to the water tank.

Have enough hose to reach anywhere in your hose, and all the way around the outside so you can spray down shrubs and such. Having an extension ladder stored easily accessible, and some small implement of destruction (a 6# maul or so) would be handy too.




I can reach any area inside my house but not everything outside. I do keep a 20' extension ladder on my porch, so I've got that base covered also.

Does anyone know how hot creosote has to get in order to ignite? My stove pipe never gets over 400°. I'm not sure if that matters though.
 
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I can reach any area inside my house but not everything outside. I do keep a 20' extension ladder on my porch, so I've got that base covered also.

Does anyone know how hot creosote has to get in order to ignite? My stove pipe never gets over 400°. I'm not sure if that matters though.

My flue thermometer suggests over 500 degrees is where creosote will ignite due to over-firing. Never got above 495 degrees, yet. That was with honey locust too. That baby was making heat... lots of it. Checked the chimney visually outside, no smoke or flames, and felt the brick around it and it was warm, but not hot enough for me to have to take my hand away from it. However, this is the first season of this SS liner, so I may end up taking precautions like you guys. Definitely will get the chimney sweeped every season. (roof is way to steep for me... it's like a 60 degree pitch :dizzy:)
 
Dalmation90 - 1 thing that my department invested in this year was various sizes of chimney pipe brushes and fiberglass poles. We have run into alot of lined chimneys and would rather use brushes designed to clean the pipe instead of causing the homeowner an added expense of replacing the liner. The chains work awsome, but if you catch a screw or a weak spot you can put a new hole in the liner that causes a new problem next week. Added bonus is we can clear a chimney from the top or bottom depending on conditions (ice, wind, pitch, accessability)

Another thing we do (and you hit on it) is meter, meter, meter. We are constantly metering for CO. All of our rigs carry atleast 2 meters and every radio car has 1. We employ every meter on scene to make sure that a CO condition does not exist or begin. Our response for chimney/structure fires is 2 engines and a tower and upto 4 radio cars. 6 meters are working at every scene.
 
I don't understand such a complicated procedure.

Why not just stop up the top of the chimney? That ought to kill the fire in very short order and is much less invasive of the house. Then a good chimney cleaning and inspection is in order. There is going to be a lot of excess air getting into the system as you guys are removing the wood from the firebox of the wood stove and that's got to be a bad thing during a chimney fire. And hauling the stove out of the house?

I bet the place is a wreck when you guys get done!


If you just cover the top then if the liner or the flu has a crack then its going into the house. Its going to try and find air some where to stay alive. And no the house is not a wreck we put down tarps before we even walk in to cover the floor. Well if you start to remove the heat that is part of the cycle of a fire (hours of training kicking in) three parts of a fire 1.fuel 2.air 3.heat. need all three to make a fire. Take one away then the fire will start to go out. And we also have a shop vac too so if there is ash there we take that with us too. Next time that we have one i will have the camera and take some pics. It does not take long to remove the ash and coals out of the stove maybe 2 to 3 mins. Once that is out of the firebox the stove is unhooked then we get the fire that is in the chimney which is stuck to the walls of the chimney. I can say that every time that we leave we always have gotten a thank you card in the mail for a job well done. I think that says a lot for the care and thought fullness that we take in to some ones home. But this all to my department yours in your area might be different (some better some bad) but all I can say that is reading this thread is please PLEASE do not use water AT ALL. This will cause a lot of damage (crack the flue or liner) because you are cooling it to quick.
 
... please PLEASE do not use water AT ALL. This will cause a lot of damage (crack the flue or liner) because you are cooling it to quick.

I see what you mean with not using water on the hot pipe. What I would use the hose for is to wet down the surrounding area and to lightly spray the outside of my double wall chimney pipe, slowly cooling it. I would also not recommend getting water down the chimney as that would probably cause lots of steam and possibly wreck the stove as well as the chimney.
 
if the fire is hot enough it will suck the oxegen out of the water and ignite the hydrogen :) at least magneasium does that, it'll suck the oxegen outta the firefighter foam :)
 
if the fire is hot enough it will suck the oxegen out of the water and ignite the hydrogen

Creosote doesn't burn hot enough to cause that effect.

Otherwise we'd have a lot bigger problems, like the chimney itself melting.

Thermal decomposition of H2O is at 3600ºF*. Stainless steel melts at 2750º. Magnesium burns at 5610ºF.

Putting water on burning magnesium is a very bad thing because it'll instantly break down into an explosive gas and go boom.

=============
* I have another reference that, in structure fires, H2O will start to break down at 1800ºF. I'm suspecting the higher temp is pure water in a lab environment, the lower temp is a combination of catalytic from other chemicals in the smoke and that the water is in very small amounts that was evaporated from the room contents earlier in the fire, but I'd have to do some more research. In any case, an average fire you're not going to have to worry about water you apply breaking down to form explosive gases.
 
I have one of those Flex King Pro Double walled stainess liner. It's basically 2 flexible Liners inside each other. It rarely every gets about 165. Every now an again I will fill the stove with oak kindling from the stair Company at work. One time I left the ash pan open and the pipe was glowing, When I closed the door is starting Puffing back.

My Question is, With this type of liner if there is a chimney fire should I be overly concerned?
 
I have one of those Flex King Pro Double walled stainess liner. It's basically 2 flexible Liners inside each other. It rarely every gets about 165. Every now an again I will fill the stove with oak kindling from the stair Company at work. One time I left the ash pan open and the pipe was glowing, When I closed the door is starting Puffing back.

My Question is, With this type of liner if there is a chimney fire should I be overly concerned?

Here's the code concerning the types of temps these flues are designed to handle.They are also only rated for a couple of flue fires. You may need to replace your liner if you have had multiple flue fires.

UL 103 Document Information:

Title
UL Standard for Safety Factory-Built Chimneys for Residential Type and Building Heating Appliances

Underwriters Laboratories Inc.

Publication Date:
Oct 15, 2010

Scope:


These requirements cover factory-built chimneys intended for venting gas, liquid, and solid-fuel fired residential-type appliances and building heating appliances in which the maximum continuous flue-gas outlet temperatures do not exceed 1000°F (538°C). Factory-built chimneys are intended for installation in accordance with the Standard for Chimneys, Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid-Fuel Burning Appliances, NFPA 211, and in accordance with codes such as the International Mechanical Code, the International Residential Code, and the Uniform Mechanical Code. They are intended for installation inside or outside of buildings or both, in a manner that provides a vertical (30 degree maximum offset) conduit or passageway to transport flue gases to the outside.

The chimneys covered by these requirements comply with either a limited duration 1700°F (927°C) flue-gas temperature test or a limited duration 2100°F (1149°C) flue-gas temperature test, at the manufacturer’s option.

These requirements cover dual purpose residential type and building heating appliance type chimneys, and single purpose building heating appliance type chimneys. Dual purpose residential type and building heating appliance type chimneys are tested enclosed and intended to be installed unenclosed or enclosed with combustible construction. Single purpose building heating appliance type chimneys are tested unenclosed and intended to be installed unenclosed or enclosed in a noncombustible chase.
 
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Too add....

Chimney Liners
UL 1777

1 Scope
1.1 These requirements cover metallic and nonmetallic chimney liners intended for field-installation into new or existing masonry chimneys that are used for the natural draft venting of Category I gas-fired, Type L vented oil-fired, and solid-fuel-fired residential-type appliances in which the maximum continuous flue-gas outlet temperatures do not exceed 1000°F (538°C).

1.2 Chimney liners are intended to be installed in existing masonry chimneys with or without a liner of fire-clay tile, or to be used as a substitute for masonry fire-clay tile flue liners in new chimneys.

1.3 Chimney liners are intended to be installed in accordance with the Standard for Chimneys, Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel Burning Appliances, NFPA 211; National Fuel Gas Code, NFPA 54 and codes such as the International Building Code, International Gas Code, International Mechanical Code, International Residential Code, and the Uniform Mechanical Code.

1.4 Chimney liners as covered by these requirements are not intended for use with Category II, III, or IV gas burning appliances as defined by the National Fuel Gas Code, NFPA 54, or other appliances that result in condensation of corrosive acids on the liner of the chimney, or that create positive pressures in the chimney system.

1.5 Chimney liners with cementitious or refractory flue gas conveying conduits shall be evaluated and marked in accordance with the solid-fuel-fired-appliance sections of these requirements.
 
I've had several and they've always occurred when I opened the door on a really hot fire. I immediately shut the door and damper and they always go out within a few seconds. Only one chimney fire that I would classify as dangerous and that was due to my rope gasket being worn to where I couldn't shut off the air and it continued to rage. It caused the dreaded lava flow raining on my shingles.and would have lit off my roof had I not had a ladder and a non-frozen garden hose at the ready.

This happened to me many years ago, fortunately there was about 2" of snow on the roof and ground, if not, I hate to think what might have happened! There was an incredible "freight train" noise in the house, a blue flame shooting for several feet out of the chimney, and embers raining down everywhere. Very spectacular. Since this event, I've been real "religious" about cleaning my chimney, and have had no chimney fires since.
 
Creosote doesn't burn hot enough to cause that effect.

Otherwise we'd have a lot bigger problems, like the chimney itself melting.

Thermal decomposition of H2O is at 3600ºF*. Stainless steel melts at 2750º. Magnesium burns at 5610ºF.

Putting water on burning magnesium is a very bad thing because it'll instantly break down into an explosive gas and go boom.

=============
* I have another reference that, in structure fires, H2O will start to break down at 1800ºF. I'm suspecting the higher temp is pure water in a lab environment, the lower temp is a combination of catalytic from other chemicals in the smoke and that the water is in very small amounts that was evaporated from the room contents earlier in the fire, but I'd have to do some more research. In any case, an average fire you're not going to have to worry about water you apply breaking down to form explosive gases.
Interesting. what do u think of keeping a water soaked roll of paper towels in a sealed plastic bag being placed in the stove to deal with a chimnifire?
 
First, you don't stop up the top of the chimney. It will cause the smoke / heat to back down into the house -- causing far more damage. If the chimney is compromised it will also force the fire out of cracks and such and into the walls.

You want the top open so fire and smoke follows the path of least resistance -- up and out.

You do want to stop oxygen entering the chimney by closing the dampers, at least until you're ready to deal with the flames with extinguishing agents.

There are several schools of thought within the fire service how to handle chimney fires.

Some are knock it down and forget. They'll do something like only shoot a dry chemical extinguisher up the chimney and if it looks like the smoke stopped then leave.

I do not believe in those, because it leaves hot, smoldering material still in the chimney. That's ignoring basic firemanship by failing to overhaul the scene to assure it won't re-kindle. A worse case would be a crack in the chimney that had allowed melted creosote out. The extinguisher may have knocked the surface flames down, the smoldering fire underneath follows the creosote out through the crack and into the walls. Oh-dark-thirty you're back because there's now flames coming out the attic.

(There will be the exceptional fire from time to time, such as a chimney utterly inaccessibly by height, ice conditions, structural instability, etc you may need to compromise, but those are not normal situations.)

If we throw our whole play book at a fire -- and not all of them get the the full treatment -- you'd typically see:

1) A Chief officer arriving ahead of the apparatus will use a Chimfex flare in the woodstove, close the dampers. They'll go upstairs and feel the walls and smell. They'll go to the basement and see the situation there. Are there special issues like a furnace (illegally) using the same flu? (This can cause concerns about CO poisoning if they use the furnace and there's been damage to the chimney...and leaving a house without heat in winter if bitterly cold brings up a whole host of issues from draining pipes to arranging for alternate shelter with family or Red Cross if necessary).

2) House will be laddered. Hopefully our aerial could fit in the driveway, otherwise it's old school. If there is still active fire in the chimney, the dry chemical in ziplock bag "chimney bombs" will be tossed down till the flames stop (cheaper then Chimfex).

Crew on the roof uses old car mirrors -- salvaged from our extrication drills -- too look down the chimney without directly looking down it.

3) Salvage covers will be unrolled over the carpet from the front door to the woodstove area to minimize tracking in dirt and ashes onto the carpet.

Someone takes a Thermal Imager and checks the walls to see if there is any extension. Find the scuttle to the attic and pop it open and look for smoke.

4) Woodstove is emptied. This stops pumping up the heat from the woodstove. Dispose of wood & ashes outside, on the garden if there is one or else lawn.

5) Open the clean out in the basement. Shovel out any creosote there already.

6) Shine a flashlight up the chimney from the clean out while a crew on the roof is looking down. Often have a mirror in the basement, too. Trying to see how plugged up the chimney is.

7) Crew on roof starts using a set of chains (old truck chains on a lighter chain used to move them up and down ) to knock the creosote to the clean out.

Shovel this into a bucket, it'll often flare back up once exposed to fresh air.

Dump it where you dumped the woodstove contents. Wet down with a pressurized water extinguisher as necessary to keep it from flaming. If there's no snow on the ground, might need to use a hoseline to soak it and the area around it at the end.

Keep working the chains until the chimney is clean. By this point you can usually look down from the top directly, wearing a mask of course, with a flashlight and see the flue is square (or round) without masses of creosote still clinging.

If there was no extension to the walls during the fire, and we've removed all the creosote from the chimney we know for certain we won't be back tonight for a worse fire. Situation is completely safe.

8) Take another look for extension. At least put your head up in the attic to look at the chimney even if you don't crawl to it; if you see anything odd or discolored or worrisome, check it out. Feel the walls on all floor all around the chimney that they don't feel hot.

9) Advise the homeowner to hire a chimney professional to inspect the chimney for any damage prior to using their woodstove again.

10) Roll up our salvage cover runners on the carpet on the way out, have a nice evening.
How thick does creosote have to be in a chimney before it can cause a fire???
 

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