Steep slope harvester

[Odog]

Kind of the same concept, just in excavation. We had a blasting job in sun valley a few years ago, to blast the pads for gondola tower footings on the ski hill. Anyway it was a 1 1/2:1 - 2:1 slope, pretty steep. I had a d8 winch cat lower my drill down and hold while I drilled the pads. After we shot, the contractor had a "spider hoe" crawl up the hill and dig out the pads. It was damn ugly, but cool at the same time. A 150 size john Deere hoe with 6 spider legs, he used his bucket amd those legs to just walk up the hill. Never saw anything like that before

 

[OlympicYJ]

The tigercat I've been told by an operator can level up to 55% slopes. I've watched one build a coldeck for the yarder 172 Madill on 50% slopes. It was quite impressive. I should put a picture up. Give me a few mins.

I know some have gone fully mech back east but personal opinion is that alot of the hardwood is a little on the big side for mech and you still need a saw for the tops. I've never worked back east but that's just my guess.

 

[Gologit]

The tigercat I've been told by an operator can level up to 55% slopes. I've watched one build a coldeck for the yarder 172 Madill on 50% slopes. It was quite impressive. I should put a picture up. Give me a few mins.

I know some have gone fully mech back east but personal opinion is that alot of the hardwood is a little on the big side for mech and you still need a saw for the tops. I've never worked back east but that's just my guess.

Good post. I don't know anything about eastern logging either but I wonder if the lack of mechanization has to do with volume? It takes a huge amount of timber to pay for all that machinery. If you were working a bunch of smaller sales it might be hard to keep all that equipment earning? Out here we're looking at multi million bf sales on a regular basis and mechanization makes sense.Matter of fact...much as I hate to admit it... it's absolutely necessary.. Back there? Dunno.
Maybe the back east boys can give us some insight.

 

[KYLogger]

A big sale around here is a million feet. And that is almost unheard of. Clear cutting around here is rarely done as well (unless repurposing land) no pulp market. I don't know the limits of the machinery but I would say my AVERAGE dbh is in the 20"ish range maybe a little more. With the majority of logging here being select cuts in hardwood stands, smaller tracts (the one we are on now is about 100,ooo bf) and the steep, rocky ground I see why. It just ain't fair though! We have no company ground, a few loggers do contract with some of the mills on sales, but that is the extent of "company loggers".

 

[OlympicYJ]

Git you make a good point that I forgot to include! When you have tons of volume and small branches to limb you don't want to deal with that with a saw. Hell even in thinning if it needs to be bucked it still gets limbed by a processor most of the time anyways.

20" is right in the sweet spot for some of the medium large processing heads like LogMax 7000 or a Waratah 624C. Processing requires lots of wood to withstand the cost. A new processor with a new carrier will run $750,000 pretty easily and about the time you get it paid off it's worn out and requires lots of maintenance and you can't afford the downtime so most guys buy a new one. The best way to drive the cost down is buy a new head and put it on a carrier that has been shovel logging for the last 6-7000 hours and is experiencing stress cracks and other wear associated with that sort of rigorous use. Processing on a landing is much easier on the machine and they can get more useable life out of it that way.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Well here are some pics of a Tigercat LS855C leveling shovel. This subcontractor has 3 of these and one is outfitted with a Waratah processor head and has the buncher motor in it. This particular one is serial number 2 if I remember right. There are only about 20 of these worldwide and this particular operator had trained some ops from Chile not too long before this job. These guys have serial numbers 1, 2, and 4 I believe. Serial number 3 is working in Idaho and probably the one Wowser saw working. I saw that particular machine brand new at the Oregon Logging Conference and again on a job site near Elk River, Idaho.

Sorry this isn't actually in the post. Been a long time since I put a picture up.

 

[Gologit]

Wes, that's another thing about mechanization that I forgot to throw in. It's real easy to have five million bucks worth of equipment on a side. What you said about them wearing out about the time they're paid for is absolute gospel. They sure don't stay new very long. Then you have choices, keep hammering on the old stuff and keep patching it back together and hope the down time doesn't ruin you...or take a big deep breath and buy some new stuff.

It's a constant balancing act, old versus new, and I can see why guys hesitate to take the plunge. The work better be there to support all those payments on new stuff and the old machines can just absolutely murder you with downtime. I always figured downtime was the worst thing to have but I had to remind myself of that when I was writing those checks out every month on the new, but rapidly aging, equipment.

If I have another life after this one I want to be a bank.

 

[OlympicYJ]

I'm getting a handle on the whole financing vehicles thing. The fiance bought a new car over thanksgiving and I'm going to be buying a new truck for work come January. Luckily I got a signing bonus with a monthly stipend/mileage so basically they are buying me a truck that I own and can use anytime I want lol. I should probably do a post about the whole job thing. Gonna be an exciting year next year.

 

[1270d]

The banker actually came out to the bush when our new processor was delivered in October. interesting afternoon, cutting with the bank in the back seat.

I talked with some guys this summer who run the wheeled harvesters on steep ground somewhere in coastal OR. Up to 70% he said. I believe they contract for miller timber

 

[KYLogger]

I know that I operate on a completely different scale than other more experienced hands hare do, but I have seen the "downtime is a killer" thing first hand. When I started in this business I had to make the decision between older equipment and knowing there would be repairs and down time, or newer equipment and payments........ I have seen the good and bad of both sides. Keeping enough work in front of me to make payments, not to mention working around the weather has always scared me. But I am getting to the point where I am tired of laying under equipment (in the mud) with a flashlight in my teeth trying to get things going for the morning, and it is costing me money when I cannot get stuff fixed by daylight. It doesn't happen too often, but often enough. Just paying my dues I suppose. We just do not have the volume and high grossing jobs that you all have out west. Makes it tougher, and easier all the same I suppose.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Well if anyone would be doing it wheeled it would probably be Miller. He's the Ponsse dealer and does lots of thinning so the guy probably worked for him. They had to winch or else it was a short break and they just rode it to the bottom. The outfit I worked for last summer has a thinner employed almost year round if not year round and I wanna say sometimes he'd get on a 50% straight up and down the hill and he had to be yoyod. 45% is about all he can do normally.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Oh and one of those tigercat levelers costs about 800 grand. They aren't cheap but cheaper than a full yarder crew. By having that cold deck it saved em a road change or two and the riggin crew loved it. They got excellent production out of piece. There was a crick at the bottom we had to fully suspend the logs over and we couldn't build a landing at the top as all that reprod was Weyerhauser.

 

[sw oh logger]

Good post. I don't know anything about eastern logging either but I wonder if the lack of mechanization has to do with volume? It takes a huge amount of timber to pay for all that machinery. If you were working a bunch of smaller sales it might be hard to keep all that equipment earning? Out here we're looking at multi million bf sales on a regular basis and mechanization makes sense.Matter of fact...much as I hate to admit it... it's absolutely necessary.. Back there? Dunno.
Maybe the back east boys can give us some insight.

Many of the logging jobs here in the midwest,the hills of Kentucky,W.va,Tn., etc. can often be small enclosed areas of 5,10 or 15 acres, but with some very valuable white oak and walnut veneer, and other good grade logs--many of these '"woods" as they are often called are on farms, near buildings or houses. Also, as Gologit and others have stated, the value compared to the expense of that type of machinery will always leave a place for the smaller logger as KY Logger stated. These guys are just trying to make a living--many years when I still had all my own equipment and my own company I would gross $40,000 to 80,000/yr. with one other employee at the most. Even now at nearly 66 yrs. old, I still do all the cutting for my brother and his business partner, and can hardly keep up with other people wanting me to cut for them also. All smaller scale but it's a good, honest living, and people are constantly calling us to look at their trees.

 

[wowzers]

Thats the same machine I saw. There are two in Idaho I think. One had a bar saw type harvester head that you could bunch with, then it swang back out of the way and you had a grapple to shovel with. The other I saw was just a straight shovel machine.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Unfortunately they had blown a hose and we couldn't watch it work.

 

[treeslayer2003]

Many of the logging jobs here in the midwest,the hills of Kentucky,W.va,Tn., etc. can often be small enclosed areas of 5,10 or 15 acres, but with some very valuable white oak and walnut veneer, and other good grade logs--many of these '"woods" as they are often called are on farms, near buildings or houses. Also, as Gologit and others have stated, the value compared to the expense of that type of machinery will always leave a place for the smaller logger as KY Logger stated. These guys are just trying to make a living--many years when I still had all my own equipment and my own company I would gross $40,000 to 80,000/yr. with one other employee at the most. Even now at nearly 66 yrs. old, I still do all the cutting for my brother and his business partner, and can hardly keep up with other people wanting me to cut for them also. All smaller scale but it's a good, honest living, and people are constantly calling us to look at their trees.

Good post. I don't know anything about eastern logging either but I wonder if the lack of mechanization has to do with volume? It takes a huge amount of timber to pay for all that machinery. If you were working a bunch of smaller sales it might be hard to keep all that equipment earning? Out here we're looking at multi million bf sales on a regular basis and mechanization makes sense.Matter of fact...much as I hate to admit it... it's absolutely necessary.. Back there? Dunno.
Maybe the back east boys can give us some insight.

A big sale around here is a million feet. And that is almost unheard of. Clear cutting around here is rarely done as well (unless repurposing land) no pulp market. I don't know the limits of the machinery but I would say my AVERAGE dbh is in the 20"ish range maybe a little more. With the majority of logging here being select cuts in hardwood stands, smaller tracts (the one we are on now is about 100,ooo bf) and the steep, rocky ground I see why. It just ain't fair though! We have no company ground, a few loggers do contract with some of the mills on sales, but that is the extent of "company loggers".

I know that I operate on a completely different scale than other more experienced hands hare do, but I have seen the "downtime is a killer" thing first hand. When I started in this business I had to make the decision between older equipment and knowing there would be repairs and down time, or newer equipment and payments........ I have seen the good and bad of both sides. Keeping enough work in front of me to make payments, not to mention working around the weather has always scared me. But I am getting to the point where I am tired of laying under equipment (in the mud) with a flashlight in my teeth trying to get things going for the morning, and it is costing me money when I cannot get stuff fixed by daylight. It doesn't happen too often, but often enough. Just paying my dues I suppose. We just do not have the volume and high grossing jobs that you all have out west. Makes it tougher, and easier all the same I suppose.

yes......lol..........well Bob pretty much nailed it. here the big boys do production in plantations with wheeled bunchers mostly. there are a few track machines........no ctl here, i don't think the ground would hold it.
i am specialized in that i log more like the guys in the appalations. it was how it used to be done here as we can grow huge valuable hardwood of all kinds. there are still landowners that manage for good hardwood and that is my niche. like ya said, it takes volume to pay for that stuff.
i move about 1 million feet yearly, mostly hand cut but i use a bell on occasion. i also do alot of critical area work the big outfits won't mess with.
one thing i am curios about in the west, all this talk of cutters out there, i thought y'all had big connifers..........how do they cut big timber? most of what i cut a machine has no business attempting to cut.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Some bunchers can cut a pretty big stick by double siding it. If it's too big for that the fallers come in and mop up. Too steep for the machine it's faller ground.

 

[treeslayer2003]

i watched a guy go all the way around a big poplar with the big tigercat wheel cutter..........then a dude with a saw tryed to finish the cut while the cutter pushed..........yea they busted it all to ****.......that was stupid to me, i coulda put it down with no damage in less than a minute. it wsan't even good pulp when they got done.

 

[KiwiBro]

i watched a guy go all the way around a big poplar with the big tigercat wheel cutter..........then a dude with a saw tryed to finish the cut while the cutter pushed..........yea they busted it all to ****.......that was stupid to me, i coulda put it down with no damage in less than a minute. it wsan't even good pulp when they got done.

Did you ruin any wood when you were learning the limits of yourself and your gear? Heck, I still kick my own arse when I ruin wood, which is often, I'm afraid. I am just thinking if they were experienced and still screwing it up, might be worth putting someone else in control of the multi hundy thou dollar equipment, but if they learnt a lesson they won't repeat in a hurry, then maybe the ruined wood was a price worth paying.

 

[Gologit]

one thing i am curios about in the west, all this talk of cutters out there, i thought y'all had big connifers..........how do they cut big timber? most of what i cut a machine has no business attempting to cut.

The big stuff is still cut by hand. There just isn't as much of it as there used to be. A lot of what a faller does now is cutting what a machine can't handle or get to. With the advances in machinery and technology that gap is narrowing all the time. There doesn't seem to be a lot of younger guys wanting to be fallers any more...not if they've been around the industry at all and understand the trends. A young guy starting out right now probably won't be able to make a full career as a faller unless he's extremely well connected and has a lot of luck. Right now there are always more fallers...dependable, experienced and skillful...than there are jobs. I don't see that ever changing.
I work mostly with one major timber company and they're heavily into plantation style reprod with a short cutting cycle. That makes for smaller timber and opens the door to mechanization.
I've seen jobs where you couldn't hardly find a choker or a chainsaw anywhere...just a lot of big machinery. I didn't care much for it.