Terminology Question

[Spectre468]

We need to replace our woodburning unit. Thought we had a woodburning insert, but the guy who did our site visit advises that we have a woodburning fireplace and cannot use an insert. I'm not sure I have a good idea what the difference is. Our unit looks like a built-in woodburning stove. Guy says to place an insert he would have to build a chimney and then install an insert. Says we can pull the old fireplace unit and put in a new one. We were planning to redo the whole mantle and surround anyway as part of the remodel. So, what is the difference and does anyone have any other ideas or input?

 

[rarefish383]

My Russo thingamajig, that I burn wood in, slides into the fireplace. I call it an insert and the dealer I bought it from called it an insert. It's heavy, and when we slide it out to clean the chimney, you can see a pipe about 3 or 4 inches tall and maybe 5 or 6 inches across sticking out of the back top of the unit. You could hook a pipe up to it but we don't. It just vents into the fire box and the smoke goes up the masonry chimney with great draft. What ever it is, it's heated our house for 27 years, and it looks like this, Joe.

 

[rarefish383]

My Russo thingamajig, that I burn wood in, slides into the fireplace. I call it an insert and the dealer I bought it from called it an insert. It's heavy, and when we slide it out to clean the chimney, you can see a pipe about 3 or 4 inches tall and maybe 5 or 6 inches across sticking out of the back top of the unit. You could hook a pipe up to it but we don't. It just vents into the fire box and the smoke goes up the masonry chimney with great draft. What ever it is, it's heated our house for 27 years, and it looks like this, Joe.

 

[UpOnTheHill]

We need to replace our woodburning unit. Thought we had a woodburning insert, but the guy who did our site visit advises that we have a woodburning fireplace and cannot use an insert. I'm not sure I have a good idea what the difference is. Our unit looks like a built-in woodburning stove. Guy says to place an insert he would have to build a chimney and then install an insert. Says we can pull the old fireplace unit and put in a new one. We were planning to redo the whole mantle and surround anyway as part of the remodel. So, what is the difference and does anyone have any other ideas or input?

Pictures of your thingamajig would help us help you

 

[zogger]

Any name/make/model/numbers identifying anything with the unit you have? anything that can be googled?

Plus like the smart guys say, plenty of pics.

Personally, I am not believing a metal box with a tube going to the outside world can't be modified to have a different metal box at the bottom.

 

[Spectre468]

Well, if any of the smart guys can tell this dumb guy how to post pix I will!

 

[Red Elm]

"The guys" statement of "can't be done", probably should be interpreted as "I dont know how or what, nor do I have any desire to put forth any effort learning on your behalf."

 

[Spectre468]

"The guys" statement of "can't be done", probably should be interpreted as "I dont know how or what, nor do I have any desire to put forth any effort learning on your behalf."

He's saying, by code, to put in an insert he must first build a masonry chimney. He says that he can put in a new woodburning fireplace like we currently have. To me, it is a woodburning stove insert, but I am not well versed in the jargon, hence my question.

 

[Spectre468]

I guess I should rephrase my question. What's the difference between a woodburning stove, woodburning fireplace, and a woodburning insert?

 

[Red Elm]

In this part of Illinois, a woodstove is free standing, not inside of something else. A metal structure vented through a pipe or chimney.

A woodburning fireplace is a masonry structure where you burn wood and is vented through a brick or masonry chimney, sometimes lined with tile.

An insert is a mtal box or stove that slides in a fireplace and is vented through the existing chimney or sometimes a stovepipe liner up through the chimney.

But im sure these are local terms and could vary from one area to the next. Im just glad we dont have zoning in this county, no inspector telling me my woodstove isnt one.

 

[Red Elm]

How is your current system vented to the outside?

 

[CTYank]

In this part of Illinois, a woodstove is free standing, not inside of something else. A metal structure vented through a pipe or chimney.

A woodburning fireplace is a masonry structure where you burn wood and is vented through a brick or masonry chimney, sometimes lined with tile.

An insert is a mtal box or stove that slides in a fireplace and is vented through the existing chimney or sometimes a stovepipe liner up through the chimney.

But im sure these are local terms and could vary from one area to the next. Im just glad we dont have zoning in this county, no inspector telling me my woodstove isnt one.

And then there are metal fireplaces. Some vented through metal pipe, like the ones with wood chases.

 

[Spectre468]

And then there are metal fireplaces. Some vented through metal pipe, like the ones with wood chases.

THIS^^^^!!!!

It is an enclosed cast iron "stove" for lack of a better term, with swing out door with a glass window. It has a damper and the ability to have a blower attached, but we never bought one or hooked one up. It has a large, removable ash pan (about 12"x12"x2"). The whole unit is encased in a metal "box" that is built in and is vented through a metal pipe to the outside. The "box" is what is built up with sheetrock and studs. We want to take it all out and replace the whole thing with non-combustible materials and get a new "stove". The site inspector said that we had a "triple wall" chimney, but that they are really only double wall. He advised going to a "packed" wall chimney. To me, a chimney is brick and mortar, but we don't have anything like that, nor does anyone else in our area. Dover is the brand and the surrounding "box" has Heatilator and Dover tags. The guy said that it is one integral unit that will need to be removed in order to be replaced, That is why he said an insert wouldn't work, because there is nothing to insert it into once our old unit is removed, and said that code requires a masonry chimney for the insert, even though it would be vented through metal pipe.

Hope this clears it all up!

 

[blades]

The Heat-a -lator system used an integral exhaust system that used cold air running between the outside flue casing and the actual flue as well as the fire box. Yes, it is a triple wall but not an insulated triple wall system comparable to what is named as such now. It required a specific flue termination unit at the roof. Company long gone, brand name lived on. The outside casing of the flue system served as the chase, these units were all Zero clearance designs as such there is no other insulation or firebrick or anything else between the units and wall construction. Hope this helps explain what you have.
It is correct that a total removal will be required and a complete new install to current code will be required. So what you are left with is a alcove for a current unit and likely enough space for a triple wall flue assembly. From the picture, the alcove is going to be too small to be of any use as is and you likely will have to increase the area required for the flue & ceiling pass through as well. Depending what is on the other side of that wall will determine in which direction you can go for the additional clearance requirements. You will also need to construct some sort of insulated hearth floor as well.

 

[Red Elm]

Yes, your description cleared it up nicely. Blades did a perfect job of explaining all of that!

 

[kodiak]

For a fireplace that is NOT an insert, look up the term "zero clearance fireplace". These use no masonry ( except decorative brick) and are usually used in new construction or major renovations. They are not for retrofitting.

 

[blades]

Heatilator brand is now offered by a firm in MN. Zero clearance units , I do not know what type of flue system is used I would suspect a type of triple wall likely of their own mfg. There is really no support for the 60's-70's units likely not much on 80's either as one of name brand furnace mfg. owned it during the 80's and maybe into the 90's. My memory is some what fuzzy on these details, as it was quite some time ago that I did a repair on one of the 60's units. Ultimately it was replaced with current free standing stove technology. A friend of mine has one of the more current units set up for gas, although supposedly capable of a real wood fire as well. It supplies nice ambiance but will frost your feet due to combustion air being drawn into it from the rest of the structure. Units with an outside air intake for combustion air reduce this considerably although it it is still present and really not objectionable for the most part but every install is different so your mileage may vary. There have been considerable improvements in open hearth units and zero clearance units of late. My experience with older units generally caused more run time of the conventional furnace system than what was added back by the units in question due to the high draw rate of combustion air from inside the dwelling. This results in a negative atmosphere inside being made up bye infiltration of cold outside air to balance the pressure.