"Thirtymile Fire" Trial

[turnkey4099]

This doesn't seem to fit very well in any section so I'll put it where the most people will be sure to see it. Ignore if you are not interested.


From Spokesman Review 08/22/08

www.spokesmanreview.com

The Northwest Seciton B page b3 - headline "Lawyers want jury to see the fire site".

The trial is scheduled for April 14, in U.S. District Court, Spokane.
----------------------------
quote:

Defense lawyers for a crew boss charged in a deadly fire that killed four firefightes in 2001 want the jury hearing his case to visit the site of the north central Washington blaze.

A US District Court judge will hear arguments Feg 29 about whether the jury needs to see the site of the Thirymile fire where four firefighters died when flames traped their crew and two civilians in the Chewuch River Canyon north of Winthrop.

"Ellreese Daniels, 47, of Lake Wenatchee, is believed to be the first federal firefighter to face criminal charges alleging negligence resulting in the deaths of fellow firefighters"

(couple paragraphs omitted)

Unquote.
----------------------------------------

Been 6 years so my memory is a bit hazy. They were trapped by a sudden blow up and there were arguments at the time that Daniels had directed them to the wrong area. They did deploy their Fire covers and most of the crew survived including at least one of the civilians. One firefighter even huddled with one of the civilians under the cover and both survived. I thought that case had been settled years ago.

Harry K

 

[Jacob J.]

I worked with this guy in the Forest Service years ago. He was great to work with, I think they're using him to make an example.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

People who use others to set an example, should be used to set an example.



Unless he was drunk or did something purposefully to harm another, hes probably suffered enough.


.

 

[Gologit]

People who use others to set an example, should be used to set an example.



Unless he was drunk or did something purposefully to harm another, hes probably suffered enough.


.

Well said.

 

[Tzed250]

People who use others to set an example, should be used to set an example.



Unless he was drunk or did something purposefully to harm another, hes probably suffered enough.


.

For real...Does anyone think a day goes by without that tragedy haunting that man?

 

[bama]

Our society lives to blame others for everything. That is part of the reason we have so many lawyers. They can't all run for public office!

 

[slowp]

It is such a sad thing. The parents of the dead just did not seem to understand that yes, people die on fires sometimes. And there's no way one can understand what the parents went and are going through. But to punish somebody who already is probably suffering, I don't understand. My mom knew that well, and I never told her the stuff that happened on the line. In fact, I always told her that I had a camp job. But her dad and uncles used to fight fire once in a while so she knew. I get the feeling that as we become more of a urban country, less and less people will understand that firefighting is dangerous work which we try to make as safe as possible, but in the end, nature is really in charge and is unpredictable. I'm glad I'm out of it.

 

[WRW]

It is such a sad thing. The parents of the dead just did not seem to understand that yes, people die on fires sometimes. And there's no way one can understand what the parents went and are going through. But to punish somebody who already is probably suffering, I don't understand. My mom knew that well, and I never told her the stuff that happened on the line. In fact, I always told her that I had a camp job. But her dad and uncles used to fight fire once in a while so she knew. I get the feeling that as we become more of a urban country, less and less people will understand that firefighting is dangerous work which we try to make as safe as possible, but in the end, nature is really in charge and is unpredictable. I'm glad I'm out of it.

No offense, but urban firefighting is no cakewalk.

 

[Gologit]

It is such a sad thing. The parents of the dead just did not seem to understand that yes, people die on fires sometimes. And there's no way one can understand what the parents went and are going through. But to punish somebody who already is probably suffering, I don't understand. My mom knew that well, and I never told her the stuff that happened on the line. In fact, I always told her that I had a camp job. But her dad and uncles used to fight fire once in a while so she knew. I get the feeling that as we become more of a urban country, less and less people will understand that firefighting is dangerous work which we try to make as safe as possible, but in the end, nature is really in charge and is unpredictable. I'm glad I'm out of it.

Well said.

 

[Gologit]

No offense, but urban firefighting is no cakewalk.

Nobody said it was and urban firefighters deserve the utmost respect. But urban fire fighting is not what we're talking about here.

 

[WRW]

No, but the urban understanding of firefighting was questioned, and given that similar level of hazard and news coverage, there should be no urban misunderstanding of the hazards.

Now had he said lawyer mentality, I wouldn't have posted.

 

[slowp]

No offense, but urban firefighting is no cakewalk.

Misunderstood me. I mean that most of the kids coming to work now are from the cities and suburbs. They haven't had much experience, other than hiking or camping and college trips in the woods. They are of the "bike helmet" generation and don't realize that you can get hurt really bad, really fast, on the line. Their parents don't realize that either.

 

[smokechase II]

Nothing wrong with punishing a criminal

"But to punish somebody who already is probably suffering,"

That is part of it, granted.
But I'm a Law and Order guy.

The defendant is charged with two crimes.
Criminally negligent homicide and
7 counts of lying on the report.

The second one may be revealing.

************************

With all these young kids coming to work in the woods on fires, we as a society must make reasonable efforts to protect them.
How many other fire line supervisors have been prosecuted for criminally negligent homicide (aka Manslaughter)? None.

In the over 800 fireline fatalities in the US it is good to know that we have been so perfect.

An often used analysis is that when a Police Officer dies there is an investigation and possibly criminal charges. When a Fire Fighter dies there is a nice funeral.

People who make mistakes and kill others, regardless of profession, need to be held accountable.

************************

What is being missed here and just about everywhere else is that there are not enough people being prosecuted for this tragedy.

1) Those supervisors on that forest who discontinued most of the fire training for that level of employee and even the record keeping for what training was given. This is an important point with regard to the inability of that crew to set up a pump show early on that very probably would have handled that fire before the burn period.

2) Those supervisors that keep an affirmative action 'target' in place, even though he requested a warehouse position.

************************

May I suggest the book: "The Thirtymile Fire: A Chronicle of Bravery and Betrayal" by John MacLean

*************************

No one is above the law!

 

[Tree Sling'r]

At last fire season's fire shelter refresher class, there was a pin-point presentation on where this happened. The map showed a shallow stream, then a service road and then a boulder slope above the road. The fire shelters were deployed in a mixture of fuel and rocks in the boulder slope.
The point was that by accessing the situation in a fraction of time they had, they more than likely did what they could.
But it was obvious there were much better places to deploy, then again who know's maybe they did all they could with the time they had.
Either way there is always a finger to point and unfortunately, accidents do happen and the culprit (one in charge or so-called is the always the mark, poor decsicion making or not.

 

[smokechase II]

Reviews of MacLeans book

"This was a very difficult subject and John Maclean covered all of the elements of this tragedy exceptionally well. Once again, he puts in some miles to get to the root of the story. Very well written. I was on the Naches crew for several years, and have visited the Thirtymile memorial. Mr. Maclean gets to the essence of why anyone would want to fight wildland fire. Highly recommended." (5 star review)

************************

"I have enjoyed all the MacClean books. They are well written and pay attention to detail without losing the interest of non fire folks. The latest book is methodical in its countdown to this disaster and accurately identifies all the seemingly innocuous events that added up to the catastrophic ending. I too am a fire investigator but I did have some difficulty understanding his description of the landscape and topographical features thought to contribute to the blowup phenomenon. A few more drawings and/or photographs would have been beneficial. All in all I enjoyed the book and believe he did a wonderful job memorializing the firefighters who lost their lives." (3 star review)

***********************

I'm going to trust these reviews. Face value.

It should be pointed out that the fire behavior, (what caused that huge vortice to turn and come down where it did), is not understood by anyone.
This may be part of the lack of understanding of the second reviewer.

 

[WRW]

Misunderstood me. I mean that most of the kids coming to work now are from the cities and suburbs. They haven't had much experience, other than hiking or camping and college trips in the woods. They are of the "bike helmet" generation and don't realize that you can get hurt really bad, really fast, on the line. Their parents don't realize that either.

OH, got it.

 

[smokechase II]

Where to deploy

TreeSlingr:

What was happening at the deployment site was they were told this was the safest place to be by the aerial attack guy.

This was accurate. It had lesser fuel, river and road and rockslides/screes.

It was a dead end road. No way to drive out.

**********************

The mood at this location was (too) relaxed.

A few fire fighters were up a little bit on this rockslide getting a better view.

They felt safe and I would have too.

What happened was a large diameter vortices (width of the canyon) spun off from the fire and laid down over them. It touched those up on the hill enough to kill all but one of them. (This guy got up and ran down to the others - badly burned hands. He must have been the luckiest guy in the world because it is almost always fatal to leave a fire shelter during a deployment. There apparently was this small gap in the vortices proximity that allowed his egress.)

Absolutely no one understands this vortices movement.
{If Professor Fugita was still alive he might be able to figure it out.}


This is no excuse for any errors prior to the entrapment. It does serve to illustrate the danger of the job.
We still do not fully understand wildland fire behavior.

 

[Tree Sling'r]

TreeSlingr:

What was happening at the deployment site was they were told this was the safest place to be by the aerial attack guy.

This was accurate. It had lesser fuel, river and road and rockslides/screes.

It was a dead end road. No way to drive out.

**********************

The mood at this location was (too) relaxed.

A few fire fighters were up a little bit on this rockslide getting a better view.

They felt safe and I would have too.

What happened was a large diameter vortices (width of the canyon) spun off from the fire and laid down over them. It touched those up on the hill enough to kill all but one of them. (This guy got up and ran down to the others - badly burned hands. He must have been the luckiest guy in the world because it is almost always fatal to leave a fire shelter during a deployment. There apparently was this small gap in the vortices proximity that allowed his egress.)

Absolutely no one understands this vortices movement.
{If Professor Fugita was still alive he might be able to figure it out.}


This is no excuse for any errors prior to the entrapment. It does serve to illustrate the danger of the job.
We still do not fully understand wildland fire behavior.

My instinct would have been to use the road and deploy. That way I have the rocks and the stream to seperate myself and the flames in hope of the fire fading out.
But that's juts me, I not a fire science guy either.
And I realize it happened so fast they did what they could do.
Too bad.

 

[smokechase II]

It happened too fast

Using the road to deploy was a good call.

Those up on the rockslide didn't have time to make that call once the vortices went their way. Too short a time.

***********************

Even though we teach against it.
Think large bodies of water for escapes.
It worked for fire fighters for years, if it was available.

The only fatalities I've ever read about in a water 'deployment' were two fire fighters in the 1910 'Big Blow-up" that were hit by a snag while in a creek. (Those around them made it.) Plus many who died, (usually drowning), in the Peshtigo 1871 disaster, although many survived there because they got in the river.

Cautions on using water:
Fast moving,
extended time in cold water,
getting hit by snags,
deep water,
water body not large enough, (either the 1996 Charleton fire behavior sponsored 'evaporation' of ponds or the 2003 Davis Fire picking up of jet ski's by a vortices - Central Oregon fires that come to mind)