Toppers

[BCMA]

Thank you for the kind words and welcome.

Illustration: Last week I went to three doctors to talk to them about the maintenance and care of my fingernails. I told them I was tired of cleaning and clipping my nails, and that I wanted to have my fingers removed at the second knuckle. Regardless of how much I tried to persuade the doctors to cut off my fingers, and regardless of how much money I offered to pay them for this service, each doctor declined to cut off my fingers. Think of how much money they could have made!

Just like I could not persuade a doctor to cut off my fingers (malpractice), I will not be party to providing arboriculture services that are not according to industry standards, or that are not in the best interest of our clients.
Our industry will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER be considered a professional industry and command the respect it deserves until we as an industry make some changes. I'm sorry to say that I'm appalled at some of the things I read on these "tree care forums". It only confirms my feelings when I have to apologize to a client for the miss-treatment, wrong information, or lack of integrity they received from our profession.

Here are some items I would like to see our industry adopt on a state and national level. At this point, in most states the only requirements necessary to become a tree care provider/climber/contractor/weekend warrior is a chain saw, pickup truck, and a Rottweiler. If we want our profession to be viewed by the public as a professional industry (which it is) some changes are needed.

1. All states require a competency license to companies providing tree care services. This license would test knowledge and practice, and insure all provides carry the proper liability insurance and workman’s compensation. Hefty fines for violations! The TCIA has a fantastic accreditation program, which I recommend to everyone.

2. No more “moonlighting”. Our company has a policy that disallows moonlighting and may be grounds for termination.

3. All companies and individuals be required to operate within the guidelines of OSHA and ANSI requirements. We as an industry are experiencing too many accidents and deaths. I know of personally of three “professional” climbers killed in our area, and one seriously hurt. All four accidents preventable with proper training, or following industry safety standards. I see some of the pictures posted on the website and see the PPE violations and wonder about the rest of the operation. BTW, OSHA can issue fines from pictures alone! Consider becoming a TCIA Certified Treecare Safety Professional.

Folks, I’m not trying to be a “stick in the mud”. I’ve worked hard at my profession as an arborist. I’ve tried to avail myself to every program, society, association, certification, training program, whatever to increase the professionalism of our company, myself individually, and the industry in our area. Should we settle of anything less?

 

[Jlarnard]

If those 3 requirements were in place I would have a monopoly around here.
I'm all for it. But the truth is the industry is not judged as a whole. If there werent "hacks" then there would also not be any exceptional services. There is the class of people who save a dime at any cost, cutting corners to save money. They look at the fancy trucks, uniforms, tools, etc... and say wow I won't help them pay for all that equipment. Then they hire a couple of hilbillys like Larry and the Derel brothers. And they pay for the 3 week binge they go on to celebrate a completed job. I know thats extreem, but I hope you see my point.

 

[lxt]

Funny industry standards...... todays standards will not be the same tommorrow, the standards 20yrs ago are still used because people saw this as industry standards and thought why change?

topping is a horrible thing but try to convince the H.O that the tree(s) they`ve been doing this to ( that keep coming back) that it is wrong!! very hard sell.....

LXT...........

 

[Jlarnard]

Standards for performing the job have and will change. But basic tree physiology dictates pruning practices. Shigo set the standards, and I was trained 20 years ago by a man who had been a climber for 36 years. He taught me proper pruning practices. So because people have mutilated trees we should all continue? No. We learn, and when we stop learning what good are we. About the only thing I remember as a debate was to paint the cuts or not. How many of you know what is the standard on that one?
I haven't stated this before but it is food for thought. ISA states somewhere. I could probably find it and paste it. But basically that liability is
an issue to companies that top trees. Think 25 years down the road, when you get a summons to court. Somebody dies because of a limb from a tree you topped years ago. Silly? We claim to be experts, people put their trust in us. We need to be experts!
I understand we all need to survive. Just at least try to sell them on a lesser destructive means. Or charge them more for removing it and plant a new one.

 

[tree MDS]

I am sure I would not word this right. But here is a link to a nicely concise article on it. There are lots of docs out there but this one is very concise.http://www.na.fs.fed.us/Spfo/pubs/howtos/ht_prune/approaches.htm

Dude, thats powerline speak, cant you see that? That is not the industry standard for crown reduction! Powerline hack! lol.

 

[clearance]

Dude, thats powerline speak, cant you see that? That is not the industry standard for crown reduction! Powerline hack! lol.

Powerline speak, uhh, you mean straight and logical talk about what needs to be done?
The tree is under the three phase line, as it grows it is growing into the three phase line. Do you know what happens when a tree contacts a high voltage powerline, or in cases of very high voltage, even gets close?

Powerline hack huh?
How about arborist retard?
What should one do when a tree that should never have been allowed to live starts to violate the limits of approach?

 

[tree MDS]

Powerline speak, uhh, you mean straight and logical talk about what needs to be done?
The tree is under the three phase line, as it grows it is growing into the three phase line. Do you know what happens when a tree contacts a high voltage powerline, or in cases of very high voltage, even gets close?

Powerline hack huh?
How about arborist retard?
What should one do when a tree that should never have been allowed to live starts to violate the limits of approach?

HAHAHHAHHAHA, sorry clearance, its just funny is all- how different the residential ansi thing I've got printed up somewhere is- thats all, lol. Remember clearance, "Arborsite", lol. Hack them Biiaaatchez right up for all I care!!! Lol.

 

[tree MDS]

Heh, Heh, Heh.

 

[clearance]

HAHAHHAHHAHA, sorry clearance, its just funny is all- how different the residential ansi thing I've got printed up somewhere is- thats all, lol. Remember clearance, "Arborsite", lol. Hack them Biiaaatchez right up for all I care!!! Lol.

Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?


I have topped many of these trees, even under 500kv lines. I think they should be sawed right down, but the treehuggers and sometimes fish huggers are not cool with that.

I am well aware of some arborists looking down on utility guys, holding thier noses and dissin us while using the power we make possible from our work and others work. You are one, hypocrite, like the others.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?

Basal prune. wrong tree for the location, mulch it.

An acquaintance is a contract forester for a power co-op, his primary job is convincing people that the pines that have been topped for the past 20 years should come down for safety, budgetary and service interruption reasons. There are 5-6 fatcat members who are huge job security for him, since they will not let forestry on their land to do anything but a clearance trim. I think he has been to court as expert witness 5 times in 4 years.

 

[clearance]

Basal prune. wrong tree for the location, mulch it.

As you know I believe it should be sawn down as well, but that is not what I asked.

Problem is that some arborists and much of the public want the impossible, they don't want nothing cut but they want power 24/7, with no interruptions ever.

 

[tree MDS]

Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?


I have topped many of these trees, even under 500kv lines. I think they should be sawed right down, but the treehuggers and sometimes fish huggers are not cool with that.

I am well aware of some arborists looking down on utility guys, holding thier noses and dissin us while using the power we make possible from our work and others work. You are one, hypocrite, like the others.

Chill out clearance, I'm tired now, I'll follow up on this at a latter date.

 

[ddhlakebound]

Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?


I have topped many of these trees, even under 500kv lines. I think they should be sawed right down, but the treehuggers and sometimes fish huggers are not cool with that.

I am well aware of some arborists looking down on utility guys, holding thier noses and dissin us while using the power we make possible from our work and others work. You are one, hypocrite, like the others.

Topping or removal are the only options in your scenario.

There is no way around that. I agree that those should be cut down and replaced with trees that will stay safely under the lines.

There are residential arborists and utility arborists who deserve to be looked down on. Some of them have never been trained to trim the trees properly. Others know better and just don't give a #*k. There are lots of people in both fields who do a poor job of performing their work. There is plenty of room for improvement on both sides.

The utility arborists have a more difficult job, and paid less, and pressed for production more, and very often are left with only bad options when it comes to trees and power lines. So it's not surprising that we get alot of hacked trees along our right of ways. If the guy running the saw isn't trained to clear the lines AND leave the tree in as good of shape as possible, or just does not care, we get hacked trees. If the land owner along the right of way fights the power company every step of the way, and only allows minimal trimming, we get hacked trees.

But I really don't think this thread is about utility topping.

It's about the residential guys who ruin perfectly good trees for money. It's not hard to find someone to hack your trees. They advertise in the yellow pages, and on the internet, they knock on your door and ask if you'd like a great price to get your trees trimmed.

Sometimes they're even the guys who know better, but just don't care enough to stick to their guns when the say topping is bad. To them, the cash is worth more.

How much does that teach the customer, when they see topping advertised, topping practiced around them, and when they ask their tree guy for what their neighbor got, too often the tree guy will say "topping is bad...but if that's what you want, im your man".

Seems to me they only learn that topping isn't that bad. And they won't learn anything different until 8 out of 10 arborsists REFUSE to top thier trees. When our industry's actions match our industry's rhetoric, then we'll be making progress.

 

[clearance]

That is pretty good ddh. Valid points. I agree that topping is wrong in almost every case. I didn't care before and I used to advocate the use of spurs for everything here, I no longer do.

But I while climb everything with spurs, I make proper collar cuts, I advise spiral pruning instead of topping to people.

Fact is that when you have to trim beside the lines, the trees will never look that good, even with proper cuts. That is just the way it is, perhaps if people would give up some of thier yards to plant trees further back, it will change.

I doubt it though, I have seen tall growing trees planted right beside three phase lines, under the direction of ISA arborists. When these trees get whacked back away from the line with proper cuts, I am sure the words "hack utility guys" will be used.

 

[BCMA]

Lxt----todays standards will not be the same tommorrow, the standards 20yrs ago are still used because people saw this as industry standards and thought why change?

I have been in the tree care industry for over 20 years and have seen things change tremendously. I expect as much change in the next 20 years. This is why we need to be involved in our industry associations and stay abreast of the new science and technology.

Jlarnard----But basically that liability is an issue to companies that top trees.

This is true because indiscriminate topping is against ANSI A300 pruning standards. It is a form of malpractice. There are companies that have gotten sued for topping trees.

Just at least try to sell them on a lesser destructive means.

No, educate them on the correct means and then stand your ground!

Clearance----Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?

If you are an utility arborist, you have few options in line clearance procedures. The utilitiy companies have a moral and legal right to keep their lines clear of trees. I have people complain to me about utility clearance trimming and my reply is to them…do you like your electricity?? Would you like to see a little boy or girl get electrocuted?? Keep up the good work and keep those lines clear. When possible remove and replace with the right tree .

Ddhlakebound---- But I really don't think this thread is about utility topping.

This is correct. The issue is the topping of residential trees sold as proper tree care. This has to stop! The providers of these “hack” services are either: 1. Inexperienced or illegitimate tree services. Or, 2. Very immoral and unethical tree services that know better, but do not care. In both of these cases we as an industry need to stand up and confront these “hackers”. I called our county commissioners on one of these tree services and tried to get them banned from operating in the county. They were the traveling type. I call them “tree gypsy’s”. They could never operate a business staying in one place, but travel to remote and rural areas where there is no competition. They have already been run out of one state by the state attorney general, and told never to cross the state line.

 

[Jlarnard]

I too agree, powerline clearing has to be done. Just like big beautiful healthy trees being cut down in residential.

 

[Rftreeman]

there's something some people are missing and that is.......if the customer wants topping or hat rack then they will get it from somebody and like I said before, if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day, call me a hack if you please but if we both were starving and all we could find was a topping job then I'd be eating like a fat cat that night and you'd be begging for my scraps.................

 

[ddhlakebound]

there's something some people are missing and that is.......if the customer wants topping or hat rack then they will get it from somebody and like I said before, if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day, call me a hack if you please but if we both were starving and all we could find was a topping job then I'd be eating like a fat cat that night and you'd be begging for my scraps.................

Are you starving?

Do you think that if you refused to do a substandard job that at least some of them would realize that because you refuse to destroy their trees that topping is the wrong thing to do?

Do you think that you're more likely to end up starving by developing a clientele of people who want a good job done, or a clientele of people who want the cheapest job done?

Do you think that people ask you to top their trees because of your reputation as a tree topper?

 

[BCMA]

there's something some people are missing and that is.......if the customer wants topping or hat rack then they will get it from somebody and like I said before, if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day, call me a hack if you please but if we both were starving and all we could find was a topping job then I'd be eating like a fat cat that night and you'd be begging for my scraps.................

I would rather pride myself in making decisions what is best for the client and community. People who want their trees topped are usually misinformed or confused about what they want. A little time and explaining of proper tree care usually is sufficient to persuade the client towards proper tree care.

Money should never be the determining factor for deciding what is the right thing to do. For how much money are you willing to sell your intergrity? If it is for money, are you willing to lie, steal, and cheat? Does the end justify the means? Would you celebrate Christmas with a stolen Christmas tree in order to save money?

I would rather go hungry than eat a stolen steak!

 

[clearance]

I would rather pride myself in making decisions what is best for the client and community. People who want their trees topped are usually misinformed or confused about what they want. A little time and explaining of proper tree care usually is sufficient to persuade the client towards proper tree care.

Money should never be the determining factor for deciding what is the right thing to do. For how much money are you willing to sell your intergrity? If it is for money, are you willing to lie, steal, and cheat? Does the end justify the means? Would you celebrate Christmas with a stolen Christmas tree in order to save money?

I would rather go hungry than eat a stolen steak!

It is not a crime to top trees, nor is it a crime to paint a '69 Camaro pink, nor a crime to listen to Celine Dion, just not right, thats all.
After all is explained and they still want it topped, it is still thier tree, is it so wrong to do as the customer wants?