Toppers

[clearance]

I understand the effects of clear-cuts and the potential for failure on edge-trees. I have never heard or seen of your prescription being prescribed or executed. Yes, it is true, that a tree that has been cut in half or has had its height reduced severely, is less likely to fall over in this setting. But, as you solve one problem, you have also opened up yourself other problems, unless you are trying to make snags, wildlife habitat, trees with heart rot, etc.. I don’t think you will get foresters or timber producers prescribing your recommendation.

Do you have any documentation, research, or papers written on this procedure recommending it?

Here is a little I’ve studied on the subject but I realize that I’ve got much to learn. The more I learn, the more I realize what I do not know.

Hazard Tree Evaluation and Risk Management​

• Certified Tree Risk Assessor #168, Pacific Northwest Chapter of the International Society of Arboriculture, Portland, OR. 2006
• International Tree Failure Database Assessor, ISA-PNW Conference, Corvallis, OR, 2007
• Hazard Tree Evaluation Workshop, American Society of Consulting Arborist Annual Conference, Portland, Maine, 1993
• Tree Risk Assessment, Ed Hays, Pacific Northwest Chapter – ISA, Spokane, WA. 2007
• Case Studies in Risk Assessment, ASCA Annual Conference, Napa, CA. 2006
• Basic Tree Risk Assessment, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 1, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 2, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 3, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 4, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Understanding the Connection between Dynamic Wind Forces and Hazard Trees, Ken James, ISA-PNW Conference, Corvallis, OR, 2007
• Tree Risk Assessment, Victor D. Merullo, American Society of Consulting Arborist Annual Conference, Nashville Tennessee, 2007
• Root Cutting and Root Risk Assessment, E. Thomas Smiley, Ph.D., The Bartlett Research Lab, American Society of Consulting Arborist Annual Conference, Nashville Tennessee, 2007
• Tree Failure Risk Evaluations, International Society of Arboriculture Compendium CEU, 2008

Registered profesional foresters working with forest scientists developed this practice. It is paid for by the timber producers. The trees are mostly over 100', so a 6"-8" top is not cutting the tree in half. As you say, you have a lot to learn, as all the stuff you have put up here about courses, speeches, whatever, has nothing to do with treework way out in the bush.

 

[clearance]

Windfirming

BCMA, and anyone else who is interested in what windfirming does, just type in the word to Google. Windfirming, lots to read and pictures to look at. Especially type in S.J. Mitchell windfirming. He is a scientist, really the man when it comes to this practice. There are lots of studies and real intelligent things written about this, by people with university letters behind thier names, not to much ISA stuff going on here at all.

 

[Booshcat]

Is topping trees worse than clubbing baby seals?
Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Jlarnard]

Well I guess that this has become a sore subject. I personally am not going to condemn anyone who chooses to top trees. Mainly because I know it won't get anyone anywhere anyways. But now I have a new question for those who don't top trees. How or what is the best way to prune topped trees. I know the customer wants a ball of leaves. But is there any advice on how to help correct the topped tree? Other than removal that is. And I don't want to exclude the toppers out there, your input is welcome too.

 

[Jlarnard]

Correct me if I am wrong. But isn't windfirming for the timber industry?
Not residential? And has it in anyway been accepted in the US?

 

[clearance]

Correct me if I am wrong. But isn't windfirming for the timber industry?
Not residential? And has it in anyway been accepted in the US?

You a right, but, as BCMA says, topping trees is wrong. He says he is not talking about line clearance, perhaps he will say he is not talking about windfirming also. So, people should say these things before going on rants about topping and labelling others as hacks, etc.

 

[Rftreeman]

we're all hacks...................................:notrolls2:

 

[BCMA]

BCMA, and anyone else who is interested in what windfirming does, just type in the word to Google. Windfirming, lots to read and pictures to look at. Especially type in S.J. Mitchell windfirming. He is a scientist, really the man when it comes to this practice. There are lots of studies and real intelligent things written about this, by people with university letters behind thier names, not to much ISA stuff going on here at all.

I did google "windfirming" and found out a few things. Thanks for the heads-up on this. I have included a couple of articles and some links if anyone is interested.

This "windfirming" prescription is used primarily to treat edge trees on logging projects or where there has been a sudden disruption in a stand of timber. In a forested situation where trees rely on each other for support, and have not developed the needed stem taper to support themselves, the practice of "windfirming" is being researched as a prescription to prevent wind-throw trees. From what I have read on going, research is still being performed.

The practice of "windfirming" includes topping, thinning of trees (feathering), and selective branch removal to reduce the wind-sail of the crowns. This "windfirming" practice is a very site-specific treatment associated with natural timber stands and timber management in conifer stands.

It is true based on simple physics that a conifer tree that has been reduced in height by let's say- 40%, is less likely to blow over in a wind storm than a tree that has not been reduced. I refer to it as the "lever-arm" effect. A taller tree collects more wind and has more leverage on the root system and the bole, than a tree reduced 40% of its original height.

How do we apply this treatment to the average residential customer? Now we are getting into “tree risk management”, and again this is another subject. The tree must first be determined if it is truly a potential hazard. The includes understand the site, soils, weather patterns, species of tree, exposure, size of the tree, the target, local failure patterns, etc.. Once you have done this assessment, which may included many other factors, now we are ready to make some recommendations.

One of the recommendations may be, leave the tree alone, it’s just fine. Other recommendations may be a crown cleaning, or crown thinning. Be very careful about over-thinning crowns. You can damage the tree by over-thinning. The last option I would consider is height reduction (TOPPING) to reduce the lever-arm effect. There you go…I top trees. The truth finally comes out. Yes, I’m a hack like a few others! Burn me at the stake!
In the past 10 years or so I have made that recommendation and implemented it in three or four cases. They were situations where there were high liability targets involved, and other mitigation options such as cabling, bracing, or a complete removal were not an option. Yes, I have this “reduction” tool in my box, but it is used very seldom.

We have a company in our area that will go door to door selling this “wind-sail-reduction” approach. They will sometimes use fear tactics to scare people into hiring their service. They usually gouge the customer on the price. The company pays their door to door sales people and the tree crew on a percentage basis. In other words, if you’re not selling tree work, you’re not getting paid. This type of business practice, and this particular business has lead to some real bad arboriculture practices. They seem to say anything to get on your property to cut trees.

In conclusion, “windfirming” as defined in the research papers and its application, is not a general practice to be used in the residential setting. Windfirming is a Canadian forestry practice to help prevent wind-throws along the edges of forest openings. I do not find this forestry concept being practiced in the States.

Articles-
Routine winter storms often cause windthrow along new stand edges exposed by clearcutting in coastal British Columbia. The operational efficiency of top-pruning, topping and edge feathering (thinning) treatments for windfirming (i.e. reducing wind damage to) newly exposed cutblock boundaries was tested. Helicopter-based pruning techniques were faster and less expensive per tree than manual topping techniques. Of the two helicopter techniques tested, the heli-saw was faster than the passive shear, particularly in mature stands with large branches. Treatment units extending for 30 m into the stand edge were monitored in the years immediately following treatment. Uprooting and breakage in untreated controls 1 year after exposure by harvesting ranged from 0 to 85 per cent of stems. Overall, helicopter-based pruning and manual topping techniques reduced windthrow within the treated plots by 40 per cent compared with untreated controls. Treatment units in which all overstorey stems were topped or pruned had less wind damage than those in which only 50 per cent of overstorey stems were treated. Few topped or pruned stems died standing in the first 2 years following treatment, but mortality increased in the third year after treatment. Edge feathering results were mixed. Further research is needed before recommending feathering as a general treatment.

Document Type: Research article

Affiliations: 1: British Columbia Ministry of Forests, Vancouver Forest Region, BC, Canada 2: University of British Columbia, Faculty of Forestry, Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z4

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/training/00015/lesson5/5-print.htm

STANLEY PARK OPEN AFTER NIGHT OF HIGH WINDS
January 15, 2008 (No. 3) - Stanley Park is open to the public after a night of gusting winds that knocked down several trees on roadways. Park crews worked during the night to remove two large trees that had fallen onto North Lagoon Drive. Another tree fell onto Park Drive near HMCS Discovery. Today staff are cleaning up debris left by last night's windstorm and inspecting trails for safety hazards.

Last night's storm was one of the first tests of the restoration work carried out last year to protect the forest from future windstorms. Over the past six months forestry experts have been assessing newly exposed forest edges created by the December 2006 storm and stabilizing weakened trees through a process called “windfirming.” The practice of windfirming involves the selective thinning of branches to reduce the impact of high winds and the risk of future blowdowns.

The public is reminded that the southbound exit ramp of the Stanley Park Causeway, located just south of the Lions Gate Bridge, will be closed from 8 AM to 5 PM today, Tuesday, January 15th for regularly scheduled forestry work in that area of the park.

http://vancouver.ca/parks/news/2008/080115_highwinds.htm

http://www.library.for.gov.bc.ca/ip...ndfirming&aspect=basic_search&x=13&y=13#focus

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/frbc1999/frbc1999mr119.pdf

http://www.forestry.ubc.ca/Portals/0/docs/BranchLinesMarch07.pdf

 

[BCMA]

Is topping trees worse than clubbing baby seals?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Topping trees is neither better or worse than clubbing seals. Both are wrong!

 

[clearance]

Topping trees is neither better or worse than clubbing seals. Both are wrong!

Always, or in some cases? Nothing wrong with clubbing baby seals, thier pelts provide income, they die quickly and are no where near endangered.

As far as topping trees, is it ok with you to windfirm trees in the bush? And I don't have a clue where you get this 40% removal, at least your down from half the tree in other posts. I will say it again, the tops are like 6"-8", not much on a tree over 100', little on a tree over 150'.

And now you finally admit, a dozen pages in, you have topped trees.........

 

[Nailsbeats]

I helped bid a job today for a teacher who wants his Silver Maple topped. It is a beauty, Probably in the 4 1/2' range with many leads. He wasn't there, so I couldn't talk to him in person.

We are recommending a shape and trim. Take some of the lower limbs and outside limbs to shape it up, then cut horizontal limbs (laterals?, crown cleaning?) on the inside. Also, there are some rotten stubs where old big cuts were made, I hope I can use these as my case to not top this tree. This should lighten it up, hopefully enough for him, because I don't want to top this beauty. The trunk is perfect, no splits, very solid and in perfect form, height for wind leverage isn't an issue, maybe in his mind.

I don't mind topping a junk tree, cause it's already junk, but a perfect virgin like this?

Am I correct on my prunning recommendation?

 

[ropensaddle]

I helped bid a job today for a teacher who wants his Silver Maple topped. It is a beauty, Probably in the 4 1/2' range with many leads. He wasn't there, so I couldn't talk to him in person.

We are recommending a shape and trim. Take some of the lower limbs and outside limbs to shape it up, then cut horizontal limbs (laterals?, crown cleaning?) on the inside. Also, there are some rotten stubs where old big cuts were made, I hope I can use these as my case to not top this tree. This should lighten it up, hopefully enough for him, because I don't want to top this beauty. The trunk is perfect, no splits, very solid and in perfect form, height for wind leverage isn't an issue, maybe in his mind.

I don't mind topping a junk tree, cause it's already junk, but a perfect virgin like this?

Am I correct on my prunning recommendation?

Remove all crossing branches first the selectively thin being careful
not to lions tail if done right, it will allow wind to go through the tree
without acting like a parachute! Some reductions could help shape
the canopy and lighten the load some lower limbs can be reduced
to allow mowing clearance as well.

 

[juststumps]

customer buys house,,, nasty tree next to it... wife is due any day now and the tree is over the new nursery..

customer is worried about this KNARLY tree falling on to his house.killing his kid...he asks this to 3 tree guys..

HO to #1: tree guy, i don't want this nasty tree falling on my house killing my kid.. or crushing anything... what would you do ?

#1 "cut it down and plant a new one. it won't hit anything til the kid is out of college !"

HO to #2:tree guy, i don't want this nasty tree falling on my house killing my kid.. or crushing anything... what would you do ?

#2 " take the top out, and shape it up, make it safer than it is now.."

HO to #2: will it hit anything if it fails ?

#2 "might take out the deck railing, and some shrubs "

HO to #3:tree guy, i don't want this nasty tree falling on my house killing my kid.. or crushing anything... what would you do ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3 : so , you can tell me, it won't fall on my house ,kill my kid, or break anything ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3:but will it fall on my house ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3:but will it fall on my house ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3: I really don't care about years to come !!! i want my family safe !!!

Honey, call those other two guys !

 

[kennertree]

customer buys house,,, nasty tree next to it... wife is due any day now and the tree is over the new nursery..

customer is worried about this KNARLY tree falling on to his house.killing his kid...he asks this to 3 tree guys..

HO to #1: tree guy, i don't want this nasty tree falling on my house killing my kid.. or crushing anything... what would you do ?

#1 "cut it down and plant a new one. it won't hit anything til the kid is out of college !"

HO to #2:tree guy, i don't want this nasty tree falling on my house killing my kid.. or crushing anything... what would you do ?

#2 " take the top out, and shape it up, make it safer than it is now.."

HO to #2: will it hit anything if it fails ?

#2 "might take out the deck railing, and some shrubs "

HO to #3:tree guy, i don't want this nasty tree falling on my house killing my kid.. or crushing anything... what would you do ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3 : so , you can tell me, it won't fall on my house ,kill my kid, or break anything ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3:but will it fall on my house ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3:but will it fall on my house ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3: I really don't care about years to come !!! i want my family safe !!!

Honey, call those other two guys !

Better cut them all, those trees will kill someone. Better not walk outside, the sky could fall too.

 

[Nailsbeats]

Remove all crossing branches first the selectively thin being careful
not to lions tail if done right, it will allow wind to go through the tree
without acting like a parachute! Some reductions could help shape
the canopy and lighten the load some lower limbs can be reduced
to allow mowing clearance as well.

Thanks Rope, that sounds about like I was thinking. I have never read on all the prunning techniques so I don't know the terms, or ISA standards, but I've been in trees for a while now (15 years) and have a sense of what works.

 

[oldirty]

rubbing, crossing , and competing. branches growing vertically off the stem (but in the same breath, some of these can be pruned as if they were a tree themselve. do this to avoid the lion tail) and branches growing back up and to the inside of the tree.

dont forget to work the tips too. bring your polesaw with ya, maybe 2 poles. sometimes tough to get to the tips on a silver.


look at you nails, getting your prune on. by the sounds of your tree description that thing sounded like the perfect candidate for your sheds!

have fun and bring another rope up with you in case you need a couple tie in's or bring the long rope up and double up on it.

edit: an almost perfect tree to use the sling and biners as a false crotch too.

 

[BCMA]

Well I guess that this has become a sore subject. I personally am not going to condemn anyone who chooses to top trees. Mainly because I know it won't get anyone anywhere anyways. But now I have a new question for those who don't top trees. How or what is the best way to prune topped trees. I know the customer wants a ball of leaves. But is there any advice on how to help correct the topped tree? Other than removal that is. And I don't want to exclude the toppers out there, your input is welcome too.

Jlarnard- You made the original post about topping. See what you have done! Just kidding. Reading your original post I can see that you are concerned about the whole-sale practice of indiscriminate topping.

Everyday as I drive it seems I see a new tree topping job done. I am sure this is exageration but still.... I am amazed that either they don't know or they don't care that it is not accepted. I have talked to a crew several times
from out of town, when I saw them topping. It was getting pretty ugly. You know... the first time I coached em, the second time I had a document to give them, the third time my family was threatened.
The customers too, it's like they have this out of controll ball of leaves next to the house, but they defend the practice.
Any wisdoms out there?

This is defiantly a hot topic that needs to address in our industry as well as other unethical and unprofessional practices. I think we have made some headway with some on this subject, and those who continue to have a closed mind at least have been exposed to some good information. I hope it will cause them to think and reconsider their tree care practices. I have put a lot of time into this, and I think it has been worth the effort.

Restoration work is going to be hard to explain except in the general sense. There are too many scenarios out there that will dictate the restoration procedure. Let me clarify first that if someone has taken a small tree and made heading cuts on it at an early age, and has done this procedure year after year, and now the tree is a nice round ball, that again, is maintained year after year, I do not consider that indiscriminate topping. This can be considered an acceptable form of pruning. Pollarding is an acceptable from of pruning if the tree is trained and pruned correctly. I view this as converting a tree into a shrub. We have had clients in the past that wanted all the previous years growth taken off. If this is done on a yearly basis when the tree is dormant, it can continue to thrive. It just will never be the tree it was designed to be. It will be a big shrub! The same with pollarding.

If you are trying to do a restoration on a large tree that was topped years ago, and has re-grown to its normal height- here is what you do…generally. First check for heart rot and weakly attached limbs. Things that could be a hazard. Be careful of your tie-in points. These branches may not hold your weight. Next, chose the most dominate branches that are the most vigorous, and ones that have a good branch attachment. Work with these branches to maintain the new crown that has formed. Other branches that are suppressed, weak, poorly attached, rotten, and do not contribute to the crown formation- remove. Many times a topping cut will sprout too many new limbs, and some of these may need to be thinned out. Look at how they contribute to the crown, and decide from there. Be careful not to remove more that 25% of the foliage in any one year or you could cause more suckering (water-sprouts). I hope this helps.

 

[BCMA]

Always, or in some cases? Nothing wrong with clubbing baby seals, thier pelts provide income, they die quickly and are no where near endangered.

As far as topping trees, is it ok with you to windfirm trees in the bush? And I don't have a clue where you get this 40% removal, at least your down from half the tree in other posts. I will say it again, the tops are like 6"-8", not much on a tree over 100', little on a tree over 150'.

And now you finally admit, a dozen pages in, you have topped trees.........

clearance- you are right! this time . I thought it was illegal to club baby seals. Well, in Canada it is not. If it is legal, I have no problen with the fur trade. I do have a problem with the ruin of perfectly good trees- called topping (in case you had not noticed ).

ARTICLE-

Today marks both the opening of this year's Canadian commercial seal hunt—the largest slaughter of marine mammals on Earth—and the 25th anniversary of the European Union directive banning the trade in fur from newborn seals.

Marcus Gyger
Sealers will begin killing 275,000 baby seals today.

The 1983 directive brought the Canadian seal hunt to a virtual standstill for a number of years.

However, Canadian seal hunters now circumvent the law by killing the pups when they are just a few days older, allowing the legal trade of products from those baby seals in Europe.

"Today the slaughter of baby seals began again in Canada, largely because Europe continues to import seal products," stated Mark Glover, director of Humane Society International/UK.

"A comprehensive ban on seal product trade in the European Union will stop the cruelty of commercial seal hunts and finally meet the expectations of the European Parliament and European citizens," Glover continued.

In 2006, the European Parliament passed a historic resolution calling on the European Commission to immediately draft legislation banning the trade in seal products, regardless of the age of the seal.

The HSUS/Milani
Sealers set sail for slaughter yesterday.

The European Commission then conducted a study on the animal welfare aspects of commercial seal hunting, the results of which should provide the foundation for a ban.

That study found, "in practice, seals are not always effectively killed", seals suffer "pain and distress" during Canada's commercial seal hunt, and "seals may be skinned while conscious."

"Just days ago, we stood on the ice floes with beautiful baby seals still covered in white fur. It is heartbreaking that the commercial seal hunt will begin today, and these pups will be brutally clubbed, shot and skinned to produce fashion items nobody needs," stated Rebecca Aldworth, director of Animal Programs for Humane Society International-Canada.

"The European Union holds the power to right an international wrong by ending its trade in all seal products."

Despite mounting pressure from around the world to end the commercial slaughter of seals, the Canadian government authorized seal hunters to kill 275,000 harp seals in 2008, one of the highest quotas in recent history. The slaughter officially opens at dawn on March 28.

The HSUS
A sealer kills a pup in the 2005 hunt. This is the
largest slaughter of marine mammals on Earth.

A large delegation of sealing industry lobbyists traveled to Europe at the request of the Canadian government to lobby against the pending seal product ban.

Recent polling shows the overwhelming majority of Canadians are opposed to the commercial seal hunt, and two-thirds of Canadians holding an opinion support European nations banning seal product trade.

Facts

Canada's commercial seal hunt is the largest slaughter of marine mammals on Earth, with hundreds of thousands of seals killed annually.

In Canada, more than 95 percent of the seals killed each year are less than 3 months old. At the time of slaughter, many have yet to eat their first solid meal or take their first swim, and they are utterly defenseless against the hunters.

The seals are killed for their fur, which is sold in fashion markets in Europe, Russia and Asia.


Nations around the world have taken action to end their trade in seal products or announced their intention to do so, including Austria, Belgium, Croatia, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, the Netherlands, Panama, Slovenia and the United States.


In Canada, sealers are commercial fishermen, who earn only a small fraction of their annual incomes from killing seals during the off-season.


HSUS is calling upon the Canadian government to end the seal hunt by implementing a fair buyout of the sealing industry, compensating seal hunters for lost income as the slaughter is closed.


Since 2005, The HSUS has urged U.S. companies to avoid selling and serving Canadian seafood in order to convince that country's fishing industry to stop participating in and supporting the commercial seal hunt. Since the boycott began, the value of Canadian snow crab imports into the U.S. has decreased by more than $465 million.


Trade data shows the 2007 value of exports to the U.S. from the Newfoundland fishing and seafood preparation industries decreased by 44 percent compared to 2004, the last year prior to the boycott. For Canada as a whole, the value of exports to the U.S. from the fishing and seafood preparation industries decreased by 22 percent.

 

[Nailsbeats]

rubbing, crossing , and competing. branches growing vertically off the stem (but in the same breath, some of these can be pruned as if they were a tree themselve. do this to avoid the lion tail) and branches growing back up and to the inside of the tree.

dont forget to work the tips too. bring your polesaw with ya, maybe 2 poles. sometimes tough to get to the tips on a silver.


look at you nails, getting your prune on. by the sounds of your tree description that thing sounded like the perfect candidate for your sheds!

have fun and bring another rope up with you in case you need a couple tie in's or bring the long rope up and double up on it.

edit: an almost perfect tree to use the sling and biners as a false crotch too.

Word brotha. It's a beautiful tree. Those big Silver's are some of my favorites to work in/on. I like to prune, just don't rush me, I like detail and perfection. I have a gooseneck trailer load ready to go in the sheds as we speak, murdered a 30" Silver across the road from this beaut today.

 

[BCMA]

I helped bid a job today for a teacher who wants his Silver Maple topped. It is a beauty, Probably in the 4 1/2' range with many leads. He wasn't there, so I couldn't talk to him in person.

We are recommending a shape and trim. Take some of the lower limbs and outside limbs to shape it up, then cut horizontal limbs (laterals?, crown cleaning?) on the inside. Also, there are some rotten stubs where old big cuts were made, I hope I can use these as my case to not top this tree. This should lighten it up, hopefully enough for him, because I don't want to top this beauty. The trunk is perfect, no splits, very solid and in perfect form, height for wind leverage isn't an issue, maybe in his mind.

I don't mind topping a junk tree, cause it's already junk, but a perfect virgin like this?

Am I correct on my prunning recommendation?

Your pruning recommendations sound very good. Remove the dead wood. As you are doing this check for decay and if it has compromised any large branch attachment. Maintain a natural leader on all branches. This will prevent excessive suckering. Remove crossed and rubbing limbs. This will enhance the structure. On any large horizontal limbs you might want lighten the ends of the branches and cut back to a lateral. The reason for this is that silver maples have a tendency to shed heavy horizontal limbs. Don't over thin. Good luck on this tree. It sounds like a beauty! Be sure to keep it that way!