Value of trees unlawfully removed from your property?

[Brmorgan]

Hey all.

My dad was very upset today. I guess his neighbor had mentioned building a fence between them through the bush in behind their places because there had been problems between their respective dogs. The problem is, the neighbor never consulted with my dad regarding placement of the fence, determining the absolute lotline location, and alteration of any trees on or near the lotline.

So he comes home last night to find an enormous mess all the way down the lotline where they cleared the line to make room for the machine with the post pounder. Don't know yet if it was a Bobcat or similar or what. Anyway, apparently they pushed over, limbed, cut down, or otherwise scarred a whole bunch of trees on my dad's land. He says they even went out of their way onto HIS property to avoid trees on his neighbor's property. Not to mention the mess of all the dirt dug up and pushed around. They're all Douglas Fir, Paper Birch or Poplar trees ranging from very small up to maybe 10" diameter.

I'll be going over there tomorrow with my camera to document it for him. He really doesn't know where to proceed from here. He's already had a big pissing match with both the neighbor and the fencing crew. He's not really upset with the fencing crew because they were under the impression that the fenceline had already been discussed and agreed upon by both property owners. I would have thought that they would need to talk to the other owner and get permission in person. But apparently the head guy with the fencers had an attitude like it wasn't a big deal, because it was over the hill from the houses and kind-of in the "back 40" and not really usable property. Thing is, we selectively logged my dad's property almost 10 years ago to thin the trees out a bit and he left these trees for a reason. And the neighbor apparently offered to "plant some trees there". To which my dad replied that he wouldn't live to see them get 20 feet tall, much less the 50+ that some were. And I know that to have a 30+ foot tree TRANSPLANTED it can cost tens of thousands.

So how should this play out? I know a lot of you won't be familiar with Canadian laws in this area - heck, I have no clue. I do know that a guy my dad used to work with had his neighbor accidentally log over onto his property and the guy had to pay him something like $1000 for every stump he left. But this is beyond just the trees too. The fencing crew drove right over the wood AND steel property line stakes. I always thought it was illegal to disturb or move them, but it seems these fencers aren't the most professional. Dad was thinking of calling the cops out just to show them what had happened and to start a paper trail. And a lawyer will cost him a few bucks just for an hour consult much less starting a civil action.

Dad's not interested in getting a wad of money, but there has to be some sort of compensation for something like this. Is the onus here on the fencers for not getting express permission to disturb the other property, or on the neighbor for instructing them to do a job without himself first okaying it? The fencers told my dad they NEVER consult with the second property owner before a job. What do you all think?

Thanks guys.

PS - I know this isn't super relevant to the Chainsaw forum but it gets way more traffic

 

[Dadatwins]

Start with a call to the police, the contractor is trespassing and now that you know it, if you allow it to continue, it could be said that you were OK with this. Call the police and stop work. Start a paper trail and document with pictures everything. Next most lawyers in personal injury work on contingency, that means they get a portion of the settlement usually 1/3 of the total. This means no out of pocket expense to you. Hope this helps, good luck.

 

[excess650]

By all means, get the police out to document the damages and file a complaint. This should stop the fencing crew. The next step is civil action with an attorney to recoup the losses. The attorney will want to see the police report.

 

[doc874]

property

File a complaint with the local police, whether you or your dad like it or not this is/will become a legal matter. I have a motto "don't get mad, get even". Much more gratifiying. Take lots of pictures for your records. The police will stop any further construction or damage to the area in question. Good luck and let us know. His property "IS HIS" property!

 

[Cliff R]

To provide specific guidance, you would have to describe in detail a "whole bunch of trees".

If none of them had yet reached 10" in diameter, they probably don't have any real timber value as of yet. This complicates the claims process because any future timber value would have to be estimated.

If you want compensation, it is necessary to determine the approximate value of the lost timber and any subsequent damage to the other trees and property.

Basically, you have to come up with a dollar figure, then ask the landowner who hired the fence company to compensate for the losses.

In some cases, his insurance may cover the losses. The fence company may also be insured? They can be held partially responsible for wondering onto the wrong property and causing damage and/or removing valuable timber.

In many of these cases it is difficult, if not near impossible to go directly after the landowner for reimbursement, much like getting rear ended by some low life that doesn't have insurance.

Bottom line for these sorts of things, it is always best to settle them at the lowest possible level. It seldom if ever does anyone any good but the attorney's when you have to go after them legally.......FWIW.....Cliff

 

[excess650]

It seldom if ever does anyone any good but the attorney's when you have to go after them legally.......FWIW.....Cliff

I'm not an attorney, don't play one on TV and didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night:hmm3grin2orange: ..........but, when the other land owner and the fence company get letters from an attorney regarding this matter, they will KNOW he means business. The letters themselves may be incentive enough to recoup settlement without resorting to a lawsuit.

 

[Cliff R]

That sound good, and makes sense. However, think about it this way.

I had a very similiar situation with the landowner behind me. He was nothing but a PRICK when we tried to discuss the problems. I walked away from our conversation (yelling match) considering grabbing my 30-06 and ending his miserable existance. The problems weren't related to trees, just property lines.

It never came to getting attorneys or sending letters, but to this day if I see his house or buildings on fire, I'm gonna wait about 2 weeks BEFORE I call the fire department!!!!!

Bottom line, it is ALWAYS best to settle these things at the lowest possible level. There is NOTHING worse than living someplace with a neighbor up against you that wouldn't urinate up your rear if your guts were on fire.....and that's exactly what will happen if/when you start any form of legal action against them.....FWIW......Cliff

 

[excess650]

I see your point, and raise you one. This started with a problem with dogs, and now has escalated to willful destruction of property and tresspassing. Now its time for intervention of the legal kind so the a$$hole gets the point. I see it as already past "friendly", and requires monetary compensation and a police report as a "paper trail" to inhibit future disrespect, and disregard. If something happens again, there will be documentation, and can be the basis to prove "pattern of beahvior". This leads to stiffer penalties. :censored: 'em and the horse he rode in on!

 

[smokechase II]

Two words

Restraining order.



------

Stop any further activity until this is resolved.

 

[rb_in_va]

Post pics here when you get them.

 

[COLD_IRON]

Land use attorney

Here the penalty is the value of the tree at full maturity.

 

[Brmorgan]

Thanks for all the input.

The fencers have refused to do a lick more work until it's resolved so that's not an issue. I don't think the other guy had malicious intent or anything, he just showed the fencers the lotline and let them have at 'er without giving them any specific instruction to be careful of anything. And my dad would rather not create a big drawn-out battle because he already has a psycho neighbor on the other side of him who laced the side of his house with 12 GA buckshot. He's a total drunk and decided he didn't like the dog barking, even though they live well out of the city where big dogs making noise thru the day is OK. But that's another story. I'm heading out to dad's place this afternoon with my wide-angle lens that'll let me really get a scope of it in pictures, so I might have time to post some tonight.

 

[b1rdman]

Thanks for all the input.

The fencers have refused to do a lick more work until it's resolved so that's not an issue. I don't think the other guy had malicious intent or anything, he just showed the fencers the lotline and let them have at 'er without giving them any specific instruction to be careful of anything. And my dad would rather not create a big drawn-out battle because he already has a psycho neighbor on the other side of him who laced the side of his house with 12 GA buckshot. He's a total drunk and decided he didn't like the dog barking, even though they live well out of the city where big dogs making noise thru the day is OK. But that's another story. I'm heading out to dad's place this afternoon with my wide-angle lens that'll let me really get a scope of it in pictures, so I might have time to post some tonight.

What can you tell us about your dad's dog? I'm seeing a pattern here.

 

[2000ssm6]

wtf?

Thanks for all the input.

And my dad would rather not create a big drawn-out battle because he already has a psycho neighbor on the other side of him who laced the side of his house with 12 GA buckshot. He's a total drunk and decided he didn't like the dog barking, even though they live well out of the city where big dogs making noise thru the day is OK.

Barking dog or not, that sob would not have shot my house. I say begin WW3 with both neighbors, get some rpg's, problem solved......

 

[Brmorgan]

What can you tell us about your dad's dog? I'm seeing a pattern here.

The problems are from two different dogs. My dad's Golden Lab barks at strange vehicles and people passing by on the road out front, and his one neighbor is a total alcoholic and any loud noise sets him off. He gets pissed about my brother's snowmobile in the winter, my chainsaws in the summer, and the dog all year long. My dad wasn't home when he shot the house but there are dozens of pellet dents in the aluminum siding and a bunch of pellets embedded in the wood deck. The cop that came out basically said because nobody saw him do it nothing can be proved, though he admitted that it was pretty obvious what happened. This was probably 5-6 years ago.

The other dog is a wolf/coyote/malamute cross that actually belongs to my brother. The neighbor building the fence just moved in a few months ago, and they let their one dog come onto dad's property, and the wolf-dog beat it up a bit because it was a strange dog on her home turf. Nothing severe though, but the guy rightfully decided that it would be prudent to fence his property to keep his dogs at home. No big deal except he didn't bother to come to an agreement about how it should be done.

I'm actually out at Dad's place right now, and after looking at it, it's not quite as bad as I thought based on his original explanation. There are still probably 12-15 of Dad's trees cut down and at the very least I would describe the fencers' work as unprofessional and inconsiderate. I took some pics but I have no way of getting them onto the computer here, so I'll post again tonight.