Willow tree butchered?

[nanava]

Short Version: Please see the attached pictures and then jump to the bottom of this post.

Long Version, if you like background: We had a beautiful old weeping willow tree, but it had many dead limbs, and many that were crossing and rubbing and appeared to be damaging one another. I was worried a dead limb would fall on our kids or our neighbor's kids. So we hired a tree trimmer. I researched on Angie's List and called several highly rated ("straight As") tree trimmers. I had several estimates done, and although I didn't choose my first choice (due to double the cost), I chose the one I felt was next best.

The owner was not there when his guys arrived, because he said he was attending a funeral. The guys didn't seem to know what to do, and asked me if I wanted them to be crowned. I had no idea what that meant, and they explained it meant to cut off the top 15 feet. I asked them if that is what they normally did - I had no idea. I just wanted the trees trimmed to prevent dead branches from falling, and our locust trees and maple were crowding each other and hanging over the basketball court. They said it was what they normally did. I said, "Well, I guess so, but just cut the dead branches off the willow. I don't want it to be crowned." I still couldn't really envision what they meant by crowning, especially in regard to a willow. "It's going to look awfully funny to crown 3 trees and not the 4th," they said. I hesitated, and asked again, "Is this what you normally do?" "Yes." So I agreed.

I quickly learned what they meant by crowning. The owner showed up and his look of horror matched my feeling. "Is this what you wanted them to do?" he asked. "I don't know! I didn't know what they meant by crowning!" I repeated our conversation to him. He seemed stunned at what they had done, but then backpedaled, saying he was only concerned because he was afraid they wouldn't be able to get all the work done in time, but the willow would be fine. It would grow back, but he was just afraid they wouldn't have time to get everything done.

I'm not one to overreact, and I still wasn't sure if this wasn't just the normal thing for willows. My instincts are that it will never look the same. We paid a day rate of $2000 for him to remove 5 trees (poorly placed or dead), 11 overgrown old shrubs, and prune the trees. I am going to ask for some of my money back. First, am I justified, and how much do I ask for back? Second, is the tree going to survive? Third, will it ever look the same?

Thanks for any help.

 

[rbtree]

Locate a certified arborist in your area, preferably a licensed consultant, to provide you with an appraised value of these trees---that is before they were butchered, and that is the correct term. These idiots have disfigured your trees, but you probably have little recourse but to pay them something.

What was done is the worst thing that can be done to trees, and was blatant topping. The trees will never have proper structure again...though the maple , given a few years, and a couple rounds of crown restoration, may be allright. The willow will become a mass of shoots. Decay will occur in those stubbed off ends, new growth will be fast and poorly attached, and tend to break or split off. It too, can be recovered, to some degree, but will take more work.

so, the owner was "horrified", but really only cared whether he could get his $2000 job don in one day....

Treeseer, think she can sue them? Those two trees alone look to be worth up to $5000-8000.

 

[treeseer]

Who the heck is Angie? Her list is worse than worthless.:bang: If those yahoos got straight A's, Give me an F! Give me a U! (Sorry, Country Joe and the Fish flashback).

Both posts are right--the hacks ruined your trees, and you enabled them. But Roger, as much as I think of consultants , I'm not sure what one could do in this case. As for payment, based on the owner's reaction you may be able to get out of the fee for the pruning, since what you got was topping.

Did they use spikes to climb with?

 

[nanava]

Answers

In response to all the posts,

Thanks for your replies. Angie's List (www.angieslist.com) is an online network that allows homeowners who have had work done to make recommendations (or not) of companies they have used. It's very widely used here in Indy, and it appears to be national. Many companies advertise awards from Angie's List in their Yellow Pages advertising, or on their websites. I joined, and read all the many reviews from other people who had used these companies.

Yes, they used spikes. There are nicks all over the trees.

The owner was very nice. I don't want to sue him. On the other hand, I think there is a place somewhere between suing and "it's all my fault." Yes, I had a responsibility as a homeowner to do my research. I thought I did that in researching to find a reputable company and meeting with several people before choosing a company. I didn't hire the truckfull of guys who knocked on my door asking to trim my trees for $500. (Yes, that did actually happen.)

Time is not unlimited - I have 3 young kids and other projects on the table (hail damage from a storm last month and a water heater that just went out.) So I researched the companies, hired the best person we could afford (forgive me for not having $4000 lying around so I could hire my first choice), and trusted that they knew what they were doing. It didn't occur to me that there would be anything to the project that required research - I just wanted the dead branches taken out, and some overhanging limbs trimmed. The owner seemed knowledgeable and intelligent when we met.

I teach violin lessons, and over the course of a year, people pay me about $1000 to teach their kids. They come to me because I have a good reputation. Most parents don't know how to play the violin, though, and I don't expect them to research how to play the violin to know if I'm doing it correctly. They place some trust in me that I will teach their kids correctly. Likewise, I place some trust in the companies I hire to know what they are doing. We're members of Consumer Reports online, Angie's List, and read reviews on Amazon before we buy a coffemaker. But there is not enough time to become an expert on every thing in life, so you have to be able to place some trust in the experts!

Where was the business owner's responsibility to instruct his guys on what to do, since he couldn't be there? He obviously did not think crowning a willow was what should have been done. If he couldn't trust his guys to do the right thing without supervision, he could have rescheduled.

Yeah, they explained it to me. But I've never had a tree trimmed. I didn't know they what they meant. If I told you I was going to teach your child to do finger vibrato by quickly lifting and lowering his finger, I am betting that 1, you wouldn't know that a finger vibrato has not been widely used in at least 100 years, and 2, that the technique I cited is completely wrong, and 3, it would highly impede his ability to learn a correct vibrato technique later.

So I am gathering from all your responses that the tree is ruined. I loved that tree. Should I just have the guy come back and take it out?

 

[treeseer]

The willow will never be the same, but if it was mine I'd keep it.

Pay for the removals but not the pruning. The owner of the company is responsible for sending out an untrained crew. I think "crowning" is done to royalty, not trees. He should not require any payment for that quality of work. You've already lost tree value and should lose no more.

I had a case where a guy advertised as an expert, then topped and killed 7 mature sugar maples. His insurance company paid out a pile, and the contractor could not get insurance for tree work any more.

He's back cutting grass.

 

[Sprig]

Oh man that was a sad sight (the jpg.s) That affects me more than Paul's avatar. I have a good mate who sells me firewood regularly, I stopped by his place a few months ago and saw what he had done to his beautiful willow, looked just like that and about the same size too, only with less branches, I had to shake my head and walk away whilst biting my tongue, *schniffle* Worse than a bad haircut imo, at least your head doesn't rot and fall off.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

.... I think there is a place somewhere between suing and "it's all my fault." Yes, I had a responsibility as a homeowner to do my research. I thought I did that in researching to find a reputable company and meeting with several people before choosing a company. I didn't hire the truckfull of guys who knocked on my door asking to trim my trees for $500. (Yes, that did actually happen.)

Time is not unlimited - I have 3 young kids and other projects on the table....

I teach violin lessons, .... They place some trust in me that I will teach their kids correctly. Likewise, I place some trust in the companies I hire to know what they are doing. We're members of Consumer Reports online, Angie's List, and read reviews on Amazon before we buy a coffemaker. But there is not enough time to become an expert on every thing in life, so you have to be able to place some trust in the experts!

...

Yeah, they explained it to me. But I've never had a tree trimmed. I didn't know they what they meant.

I sometimes catch myself being annoyed at the ignorance that people show about the most basic aspects of my field. Then I remember that I've got some formal education and 22 years in the business. And not everybody has that. AND I've got a lot of people in my field spreading BAD information. (Soiund familiar?) So, I don't really have good reason to be annoyed.

It's easy for an expert to have unrealistic expectations of those who are consumers of what we do. Sometimes it's difficult to see things from their perspective, because, c'mon, this is BASIC stuff that anybody should know!

Only it's not. I had no clue that crowning was bad before I discovered this site. I've learned a LOT from you guys, and I probably knew more than most homeowners when I started reading here. I love trees, but I haven't had time in my life to learn all you guys know - not even a small part of it. And most people don't. We have to trust the "experts", and we don't really have a good way to sort out who is who.

I don't think nanava was irresponsible. She didn't go with the $500 dollar at her door guys. Good for her. She didn't go with the high bidder, either. That's not automatically a bad choice.

She'll know better next time, but that won't help these trees now.

 

[Tree Wizard]

I was involved in a similar case about two years ago. But instead of topping, I'll call it "bottoming." A landscape contractor was doing some renovations at a property and for whatever reason the owners contracted (written) with the landscaper to crown thin 3 silver maples and a Norway maple. Owners weren't home when work was done. The "crown thinning" amounted to cutting off every limb and branch less than 6" in diameter that could be reached with a stick saw from a step ladder. The 20' Norway maple was quite funny looking with only 6 or 7 branches left on it.

The owners went after the landscaper (and his insurance company). I appraised the trees before and after and cited A300 pruning standards in my report. Insurance company paid.

 

[arboristman]

i dont like it! not even a little! you where over charged,and you got ???? in return.
based on your pics,the willow will be fine,the willow can be cut like this and be fine.but NEVER should be done to this degree.
your tree will be ok.
the tree service should be reported.

but if you have nothing in writeing,let it go.nothing good will come from it.
the weeping willow can be cut up to like 1 foot diameter and sprout just fine.
so if you deside to take these hackers to court,bet on NOT winning the case. based on the pics,they will be more than fine,but NEVER will my tree service do such work.
hope this helps. in the end,the trees will be fine,but you over payed,and in court you will only pay more,imo.
you have been HAD. take it like a man,learn next time.but no matter what you do,i wish ya gl.

 

[rebelman]

A300 pruning standards in my report. Insurance company paid.[/QUOTE]

I believe if you had it in writing that work would be done to ANSI pruning standards you would have a better chance of getting your money back. The work definitely was not to ANSI standard.

 

[arboristman]

A300 pruning standards in my report. Insurance company paid.

I believe if you had it in writing that work would be done to ANSI pruning standards you would have a better chance of getting your money back. The work definitely was not to ANSI standard.[/QUOTE]

it wasent recorded as such buddy.

 

[fromthehollow]

Nanava,

Please forgive my pompous colleagues who, while are certainly providing you with factual information, seem to think if they are not being paid, they can be less tactful.

According to your background information and photographs, I will do my best to answer your questions:

1. Certainly, you are justified in asking for your money back due to the unprofessional topping that was done to your trees.

How much? Most "professional" arborists will draw up a proposal or written estimate describing what work is to be done for your trees and a cost per tree or per hour. If you received such a written proposal, describing what the objectives and actions were to be taken for each tree, it will make it very easy for you to show the owner that you did not get the service you agreed to, and how much you are not going to pay.

If you did not receive such a written proposal, then look for mention of the terms "professional", "qualified", "expert", "licensed" or "certified" on the tree company's business card, phone directory ad or website. Any of these terms would suggest that their pruning practices would comply with the national standards known as ANSI A-300 Pruning Practices. You can mention this to the owner when you explain that you are not going to pay for the "unprofessional or unqualified" work that they did to your trees, more commonly known as, "topping". Furthermore, if the owner did not itemize the work to be done by the tree or by the hour, try to figure that out on your own.

Most important though, be sure to get a written proposal with written objectives and actions to be taken for each tree, along with itemized costs per tree or per hour the next time you hire an arborist (which will be quite often, if you want to keep your willow and maple from becoming high risk trees).

As for possibly suing and the possibility of these trees being worth $5000 or more, I believe those numbers to be a little over-zealous. Weeping willows and silver maples are not highly-prized species in the woody plant world. And finding a competent tree appraiser is even more difficult than finding a qualified arborist. Furthermore, if you find a competent tree appraiser, the cost for the appraisal and the attorney will probably exceed the value of the trees.

2. Your trees are probably going to survive. Both of these species are quite proficient at producing epicormic shoots. These will be multiple shoots that will begin to grow from the cut stubs.

3. Over time (about 3 years), your trees will look full, and even "normal" again. However, the "stubbed" areas will begin to decay, making the branches of your trees more susceptible to breaking in the wind (approximately 8-10 years). Hence, making them trees that are high risk for failure.

Finally, if I were the tree appraiser assessing the damage done to your weeping willow and silver maple, I would probably suggest a cost and recommendations of how to restore the benefit lost by doing the following:

A. Plant some one to two inch caliper replacements within six feet of the existing trees now. Preferably, some slower-growing, more desirable species.

B. Plan on hiring a certified arborist to do restoration pruning on the trees every other year for as long as needed before replacements get to a desirable size.

C. Eventually, remove the willow and maple and enjoy your new trees!


I'm very sorry about your experience. There really are many qualified and certified arborists who care about trees and their customers (over 17,800 of us!). I hope this experience finds you meeting one some day!

 

[treeseer]

Welcome, fromthehollow.

I agree with everything except the replanting idea. I think those trees can be restored, by the right hands. Endocormic sprouts can become reliable branches.

 

[Ekka]

Nanava,

Whenever I write up a bid there are 3 copies, one for the client, one as a job sheet for the day and a book copy ... for every job.

Surely you have some paperwork for a $2000 job?

If so, please scan it or take a pic of it and post it in here. If you went ahead on this job with nothing in writing then you took a huge risk.

Where I live 80% upward of tree people are uncertified/unqualified hacks, every day I lose work to hacks like you've just experienced.

I have specific info on my website and leaflets I hand out warning people and I'm losing the battle ... I'm the odd man out and the hacks are laughing all the way to the bank.

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/StopLop.html

I encourage you to build your case and I must say that when I read this "The owner was very nice." I thought yeah, most conmen are, and he did a very nice job on your trees didn't he with his poor management skills, lack of paperwork, lack of trained and professional staff who also spiked your prune job.

So please, dont judge performance by personality, it's the next foolish mistake ... this man is an idiot and burn him, he is the very representation of the wrong things to do in this business, do not support these businesses and seek more than restitution, complain everywhere you can, is he a cerified ISA arborist? If so, report him for malpractice. Tell the local authority as well as any consumer groups.

Now, here's the add I run, it costs me a lot of money, I hope you dont mind if I add you to the list of victims.

 

[a_lopa]

love that advert

 

[Tank]

I agree with From-the-hollow on his replacement planning. Yes the trees will live, but it will be difficult to regain decent form. Find a good certified arborist to work with on the replanting, removal, and pruning young trees to proper form. If you have not paid the guy who did the butcher job, don't. Tell him him to go to hell.

 

[nanava]

Thanks!

Everyone,

I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to respond to me. A few more answers: yes, I had a written estimate/contract, but it was very non-specific. And I talked to the tree trimmer. Of course, he was very defensive and angry. But he asked us to give him a chance, and see how the tree did by next year. He agreed to put in writing that if we were not satisfied with how the tree was after a year, he would refund $1500. He says he's been doing this for 19 years, and insists the tree is going to be fine. I'm not entirely happy, because I realize now that it may look ok after a year, but the real question is whether or not it will survive long term. But I don't really see that we have much other recourse, other than to trash his straight A's rating to **** on Angie's List. As many of you have said, and we agree, legal action is a long shot at best. In the meantime, we are going to have an arborist come out and look at it.

It's a substantial, but not a huge yard. There isn't much room to put another tree in there, and it tends to be very swampy in that part of the yard so I'm not sure what else to put there other than another willow. But we may take the advice to put in another tree there, just in case our willow doesn't survive long term - we don't want to be left without a shade tree in 10 years. I guess we'll ask the arborist what to put there when they come out.

We definitely have learned a lot from this experience! Thanks again to everyone.

 

[antigrassguy]

Nanava, its not a matter of how the tree is in 1 year. Its a willow and it will sucker back like crazy and look like a big green ball. Its appearance, to the untrained eye, will be OK. The problem is that the tree WILL decay or rot at the end of the stubs, picture a empty coffee can with a whole lot of water sprouts or suckers attached to the end. In the coming years these will start to break and will be a much larger problem then the few dead limbs were to start with. The only way to monitor the decay is to physically go back up tree and inspect all stubs. They have created a high maintenance issue for your tree and you. Topping is bad. It is a willow and will survive long term with green limbs falling out, as a result of this butcher job.
It doesnt matter how many years this hacker has been repeating the same mistakes. I WOULD NOT give them the 1500 and hope to get any back next year, period. Encourage them to learn about tree health and how what they do to trees today will effect the trees life for many years(decades) to come. Some lessons are expensive(1500?) International Society of Arborcultures web site may be a good start or go to "treesaregood.com". Google "tree topping" for more info if you want.
Low swampy area? How about a black oak or a larch?
Sorry for your experience and wish you well and trash the A's on Angies list to help others from making the same mistake

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Every industry works to a standard. Tree care workers, work to ANSI Standards.
ANSI has printed standards of tree care. They are used to educate tree workers, set standards for tree care, and most importantly are use in litigation, should things go to court.
Two arborists could argue day and night about the finer points of tree care, but it would only take a few minutes of reading the ANSI standards to know your trees were not trimmed to the industry standards.
If an arborist decides to work outside the standards, he better be prepared to prove his way is not going to cause problems. In other words, the burden of proof shifts to him.
If you don't pay him, he might decide to take you to court. All you need to point out is the work was not done to any industry standards. Specifically the ANSI A300 Pruning Standard (Available for $20 through a site sponsor Sherrill Arborist Supply).
If nothing else, you need to get these standards into his hands. First, to let him know he messed up. Then, to warn him against messing up on some trees that could really wipe him out. And finally, it will help him to do the kind of work that will get him ahead in the industry.

 

[rebelman]

The guy was defensive and angry? Don't let him intimidate you. Just because this happens a lot doesn't make it right.