Echo CS-590 timberwolf vs. Echo CS-600P

[Chris-PA]

I bet you are against guns and sharp objects too.

The real world is more complicated than your juvenile stereotypes would have you believe. I'm a pretty decent shot and I can put an edge on a blade better than most you'll meet. I'm a country boy and I love the natural world around me. Not sure where people got the idea that was a wussy thing - must be from watching too much TV and advertising from city folks.

lots of saws out there with the cat still in the muffler tuned properly running just fine. and will for a very long time.
what i don't get is how do people think retuning the carb is 'fixing' the saw. do they think tuning a saw is a new thing? and i don't think this is a sole problem of echo. weather it's a strato or not. you run a strato lean and it will fail just as fast as a non-strat. the epa don't care how the saw runs, they only care what is coming out of the muffler.
you think the big companies would be building the statos if there wasn't any epa?
why do some startos run well? design credits. make an engine seem to run cleaner due to a different design and they let you get a little more agressive with the porting.

A strato engine does not need to be tuned as lean to meet the emissions rules. And no, there would be no strato engines without regulations - it was very expensive to develop and they would have rather spent the money on bonuses for executives. Stratos actually put less unburned fuel out the exhaust, it's a real advantage, not a fantasy.

 

[echoshawn]

The 'obsolete' Echo design does just fine by EPA standards as long as you don't defeat the factory mixture limitations. Go ahead, run it that way, I dare you!

I do run mine with the limiters in place. I know how to read a plug, and what a lean saw sounds like. I also know that if it was showing signs of lean running, I'd take it back to my servicing dealer to be properly adjusted, under warranty... No issues to date.

I have an regular job that takes my time. This reduces the fossil fuels I use, their cost to my family, and reduces the overall pollution and CO2 I put out (in spite of the saws), and thus my contribution to climate change.

I also work full time and then some, and not in my industry of choice.
Ever consider how much fuel you use collecting firewood? Hauling, cutting, and splitting it?
How much CO2 does your woodburner of choice emit?

Oh, and if you guys think I'm ashamed of being environmentally concerned, you are mistaken.

You know what would have an even bigger impact? Don't buy the newest, latest, greatest thing. Use what you currently own, keep it in good repair, and rebuild if needed. Don't replace. Manufacturing a new, eco-friendly product creates far more emissions than using the original product. If I were to replace my old truck, with a brand new, cleaner burning, blah blah blah modern truck, the new one would be worn out before it'd even come close to making up the difference. It's far more eco-friendly to run what you have for as long as you can, then rebuild and run some more..

 

[Hedgerow]

The real world is more complicated than your juvenile stereotypes would have you believe. I'm a pretty decent shot and I can put an edge on a blade better than most you'll meet. I'm a country boy and I love the natural world around me. Not sure where people got the idea that was a wussy thing - must be from watching too much TV and advertising from city folks.

A strato engine does not need to be tuned as lean to meet the emissions rules. And no, there would be no strato engines without regulations - it was very expensive to develop and they would have rather spent the money on bonuses for executives. Stratos actually put less unburned fuel out the exhaust, it's a real advantage, not a fantasy.

Yes... A strato saw will wring more run time out of a gallon of fuel than a normally charged 2 stroke of similar size...
But I'll not debate the Eco junk with you.. You're a smart fella, and will figure this stuff out for yourself...
I too, believe in good stewardship.... The real debate lies in just exactly how to achieve it...
And the 600p is still a great saw, and sips fuel even when tuned properly... It's a 60 cc saw and uses less fuel than my 46 cc 028 Stihl...
That tells me Echo did their homework with the ports...
New tech or not....
Effective...

 

[brokenbudget]

A strato engine does not need to be tuned as lean to meet the emissions rules. And no, there would be no strato engines without regulations - it was very expensive to develop and they would have rather spent the money on bonuses for executives. Stratos actually put less unburned fuel out the exhaust, it's a real advantage, not a fantasy.

a non strato does not have to run any leaner than a strato to pass any regs. where did you hear this? the majority of chainsaws shipped out from what ever compnay you pick are set pretty darn close to where they need to be to run long happy lives. maybe a small amount of tuning needed at the dealer. some are actualy a little rich, and this is becoming more common than the lean saws. you just don't hear it here because people don't complain about their saws unless they're lean and not running properly.


you're also missing the point of the limiters on the carb. they are not there to dictate that this is where the jets must be set to pass the epa testing. they are only there to stop harry homeowner from richening that saw up to the point of where it's slathering rich and actualy puking out the baddies into the air. you can richen up one of these alot before you get there.

 

[Chris-PA]

I do run mine with the limiters in place. I know how to read a plug, and what a lean saw sounds like. I also know that if it was showing signs of lean running, I'd take it back to my servicing dealer to be properly adjusted, under warranty... No issues to date.



I also work full time and then some, and not in my industry of choice.
Ever consider how much fuel you use collecting firewood? Hauling, cutting, and splitting it?
How much CO2 does your woodburner of choice emit?




You know what would have an even bigger impact? Don't buy the newest, latest, greatest thing. Use what you currently own, keep it in good repair, and rebuild if needed. Don't replace. Manufacturing a new, eco-friendly product creates far more emissions than using the original product. If I were to replace my old truck, with a brand new, cleaner burning, blah blah blah modern truck, the new one would be worn out before it'd even come close to making up the difference. It's far more eco-friendly to run what you have for as long as you can, then rebuild and run some more..

OK, my last post in this thread. Compared to the amount of heating oil I used to use the paltry few gallons of gasoline I use cutting and hauling my firewood is of little consequence. I split mostly by hand except for crotches and whatnot. The CO2 my woodburner puts out was taken from the atmosphere in the last couple of decades, which is a far different situation than releasing carbon that has been stored for millions of years.

If you notice all my saws (except the Husky my wife bought me) are used junk that would likely have ended up in a landfill. What you propose is exactly what I'm doing, and even my strato saw is a used old saw I brought back to life. I'm well aware of the energy used in manufacturing, which is why I will spend the time to fix most anything. My car is 14 years old and was the cheapest model of car sold at the time. Works fantastic, handles well and gets great mileage.

So if Echo has managed to make a saw with no changes to the fundamental design but that still meets the emission regs and uses less fuel, and then good for them. Call me very skeptical.

a non strato does not have to run any leaner than a strato to pass any regs. where did you hear this? the majority of chainsaws shipped out from what ever compnay you pick are set pretty darn close to where they need to be to run long happy lives. maybe a small amount of tuning needed at the dealer. some are actualy a little rich, and this is becoming more common than the lean saws. you just don't hear it here because people don't complain about their saws unless they're lean and not running properly.

A non-strato pumps (much more) unburned fuel out the exhaust, in addition to whatever the strato pumps out, all other things being equal (displacement, etc.).

 

[Mastermind]

All chainsaws should be disposed of.........loud and dangerous......not to mention nasty.

 

[brokenbudget]

All chainsaws should be disposed of.........loud and dangerous......not to mention nasty.

and they're racist.

 

[hoeyrd2110]

ehh the echo hate again...really? they are great saws specifically the 600P. WHW i think oregon makes a saw that charges in a wall outlet which will lower your carbon footprint:hmm3grin2orange:

i love the 600P but i also love my old reed valve 660evl...stump puller and a gas guzzler but man does she run smooth and the sound is just right:msp_razz: pulls a 24" all day long with authority.

 

[old 040]

All chainsaws should be disposed of.........loud and dangerous......not to mention nasty.

hey...............aren't you one of the guys that the epa loves to hate?....................:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[mountainlake]

I also work full time and then some, and not in my industry of choice.
Ever consider how much fuel you use collecting firewood? Hauling, cutting, and splitting it?
How much CO2 does your woodburner of choice emit?

Just looked it up, wood heat puts out tons more pollution than gas heat. WHW you better quit burning wood, sell your saws, drive a bike, grow a garden (we can't have farmers polluting) etc. For those of us that know better wood rotting out in the woods puts out a lot of pollution also. Steve

 

[old 040]

I also work full time and then some, and not in my industry of choice.
Ever consider how much fuel you use collecting firewood? Hauling, cutting, and splitting it?
How much CO2 does your woodburner of choice emit?

Just looked it up, wood heat puts out tons more pollution than gas heat. WHW you better quit burning wood, sell your saws, drive a bike, grow a garden (we can't have farmers polluting) etc. For those of us that know better wood rotting out in the woods puts out a lot of pollution also. Steve

i'm pretty sure he's done....................:msp_unsure:

 

[Mastermind]

hey...............aren't you one of the guys that the epa loves to hate?....................:hmm3grin2orange:

Who me? What did I do? :msp_ohmy:

I'm all for helping rid the world of unburned hydrocarbons. That's why I'm a fan of big compression.......it helps create an engine that is higher in volumetric efficiency thereby reducing emissions. :cool2:

 

[Majorpayne]

Who me? What did I do? :msp_ohmy:

I'm all for helping rid the world of unburned hydrocarbons. That's why I'm a fan of big compression.......it helps create an engine that is higher in volumetric efficiency thereby reducing emissions. :cool2:

And noise. Noise cleans the air.

 

[Mastermind]

And noise. Noise cleans the air.

Right on.

 

[ncfarmboy]

Not remotely interested now that I know what it is. There are plenty of good saws on the market, if I was in the market I wouldn't buy that. I like clean air.

I heard this on the RFD channel Govt specs claim farmers are blamed for 10% of polution. You got to be kidding. I like clean air too I live in the woods. I thought clean air was what trees are supposed to do. I like my 2 CS600P 2012 a LOT after alittle surgery on the muff's and a retune. Much better choice than a Stihl MS391 or a Husky 460 and a whole lot cheaper too. Best bang for the buck in 60cc's. Looking for a CS400,500,550 to add to my Echo line.
Shep

 

[cmarti]

Who me? What did I do? :msp_ohmy:

. :cool2:

Where do we start:msp_sneaky:.........


Wood Heat is a good guy and loves to tinker with saws.........I think his user name gives him a very deep hole to dig out of if he wants to discuss emissions:dunno: He may just be dissapointed Echo has not gone cutting edge.

I try to be a good steward on our property (more than just picking up and recycling all our beer cans), but I can't help but enjoy the Brrrraaap of a 2 cycle. They will pry my old Poulan's out of my cold dead hands.......:redfaceI cant believe I went there)

 

[Doug Fir]

Wood heat is a relatively clean option!

...
Ever consider how much fuel you use collecting firewood? Hauling, cutting, and splitting it?
How much CO2 does your woodburner of choice emit?

Just looked it up, wood heat puts out tons more pollution than gas heat. WHW you better quit burning wood, sell your saws, drive a bike, grow a garden (we can't have farmers polluting) etc. For those of us that know better wood rotting out in the woods puts out a lot of pollution also. Steve

To answer your first question, on average 1 BTU of fossil fuels is used to produce 27.6 BTUs of heat from firewood. This is an excellent "Energy Return on Investment" (EROI). I have done my own calculations and I do quite a bit better than this, but I am not "average", as most of my my wood is harvested within a couple of miles of my home and I split by hand.

Regarding emissions, your statement is too vague to be evaluated, but one study found that wood heat is one of the best options in terms of overall emissions. Here are some results from that study, which looked at three categories of emissions.

(1) CO2 equivalents: Wood is the CLEANEST option

Wood heat produces 8.56 tons of CO2 per quad of heat delivered, which is lower than every other heat source, including natural gas (17.5 tons), fuel oil (22.1), kerosene (31.7), LPG (19.6), coal (29.4) and electricity (57.4 for the national average, although this varies regionally). Every scientist who works in this area realizes that "wood rotting out in the woods puts out a lot of pollution". The CO2 from rotting wood is identical to the CO2 from burning wood; it is part of the natural carbon cycle. The carbon cycle of forests is taken into account when computing net CO2 emissions, as is the fuel used to gather and process wood. Scientists who calculate emissions are not as dumb as you seem to think.

(2) Acid equivalents: Wood is the CLEANEST option

Wood heat produces 1.4 billion "acid equivalents" per quad of heat delivered, which is lower than every other heat source, including natural gas (2.4), fuel oil (6.8), kerosene (3.5), LPG (1.6), coal (20.8) and electricity (15.2, for the national average).

(3) Fine particulate emissions: Wood burned in CERTIFIED stoves is neither the cleanest nor the dirtiest option; choice of stove is critical

A stove that just meets the EPA certification standard produces 430 thousand tons of fine particulates per quad of heat delivered, which is lower than coal (729) and electricity (520, for the national average). The best modern stoves, such as the Lopi Cape Cod hybrid, have particulate emissions that are a fraction of the EPA standard. The particulate emissions of these stoves are lower than fuel oil (188) and kerosene (74), but are higher than natural gas (28). In terms of particulates, natural gas is the cleanest fuel, but in terms of CO2 and acid equivalents, wood heat is the winner (among the options listed).

The following link will take you to the study that is the source for most of the above figures. As I stated, the particulate data in this study do NOT reflect the newest stoves, whose emissions are dramatically reduced. Nonetheless, the study concludes that wood is one of the cleanest options:

http://basineducation.uwex.edu/centralwis/pdfs/hpawma.pdf

Wood heat is much cleaner than most people imagine, particularly if you use a modern, efficient stove.

Doug

 

[mountainlake]

The biggest thing is burning and rotting wood produce the same co2, may as well get some heat out of it. Steve

 

[zogger]

The biggest thing is burning and rotting wood produce the same co2, may as well get some heat out of it. Steve

I am as green and conservation minded as you can get and to me, firewood is also as green as it gets. Storable solar power! Save up the heat from the summer, release it in the winter when you need it, whats not to like? It also helps with energy independence and doesnt require a lot of those dubious bank debt note certificates if you can scrounge it...and I have yet to be in any areas where I couldnt go scrounge wood somehow.

 

[cmarti]

To answer your first question, Wood heat is much cleaner than most people imagine, particularly if you use a modern, efficient stove.

Doug

You have presented a well thought, well written and logical argument. I am not sure that is allowed on this site. I will debate that you have presented wood burning heat in it's most positive light. The use of older stoves, campfires, fireplaces and inadequate ventilation dampen the outlook on both indoor and outdoor air quality. There is debate on on what's a better big picture solution. My gut tells me my fireplace put's out more crap than my natural gas furnace....but what's the cost/pollution of getting the coal, oil and gas to a home? I never thought of that.

I am guilty of fireplaces in my home and woodburner in an out building, and campfires outdoors. I am not advocating no burn, I fear the eco police will take it away. It's just there are alot of people screaming over woodburning, I found your points interesting.

Air pollutants from fireplaces and wood-burning stoves raise health concerns
hhttp://www.epa.gov/oaqps001/community/guide/wood_stoves_oo_sheet.pdf
ttp://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-13-woodburning-pollution_x.htm


Regardless of all this, I think the original point of disliking a saw because it put's out more emissions than a strato saw is what people found
somewhat overboard. We got way off track of the merits of a 590 Timberwolf.