RiverRocket
ArboristSite Guru
I was looking at the Hawken today, there's a dealer about 8 -10 miles from me.
You say "they get a bad rap" what are the problems people are having with them?
What's The Best OWB?
- Thread starter RiverRocket
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I was looking at the Hawken today, there's a dealer about 8 -10 miles from me.
You say "they get a bad rap" what are the problems people are having with them?
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thanks for the explanation. I'll have to check mine just to see what is stainless, maybe it is just the water jacket but I would think the whole thing is stainless. I know the door isn't, never really looked at much else.
Owb
Just type in Hawken boiler and global hydronics in the search box to see the issues that have cropped up with them and what one owner has tried to do to have the problems fixed that occured with his unit. They went out of business for a while too and are building them somewhere else now I guess.
Both gassers and the original batch burners still create a large amount of unburned smoke when idling.
The smoke is unburned wood particles and that never changes.
gassers work best with dry seasoned wood because of the low moisture content of the splits where unsplit rounds do not burn well unless they are sheared crushing the end grain of the wood.
The idea is to keep either them from idling and storing the heat in a water mass greater than the volume of the OWB IF at all possible.
When small batch burners are burning with small splits they burn hot and transfer the heat to water storage and burn up almost all the smoke until the fuel is gone. Gassers run off and on and still smoke. This happens with CB and Portage and Main gassers as well.
It all depends of how much money time you have and the fuel supply you have access to. Once you buy it they won't take it back.
You may just end up buying a P+M stoker for wood pellets and coal and be done with it-little to no smoke and low unburned ash levels.
The other option is an EFM stoker for coal and putting it in your garage if you have one. AN EFM DF520 will cost you less to buy than a P+M stoker before installation.
Just type in Hawken boiler and global hydronics in the search box to see the issues that have cropped up with them and what one owner has tried to do to have the problems fixed that occured with his unit. They went out of business for a while too and are building them somewhere else now I guess.
Both gassers and the original batch burners still create a large amount of unburned smoke when idling.
The smoke is unburned wood particles and that never changes.
gassers work best with dry seasoned wood because of the low moisture content of the splits where unsplit rounds do not burn well unless they are sheared crushing the end grain of the wood.
The idea is to keep either them from idling and storing the heat in a water mass greater than the volume of the OWB IF at all possible.
When small batch burners are burning with small splits they burn hot and transfer the heat to water storage and burn up almost all the smoke until the fuel is gone. Gassers run off and on and still smoke. This happens with CB and Portage and Main gassers as well.
It all depends of how much money time you have and the fuel supply you have access to. Once you buy it they won't take it back.
You may just end up buying a P+M stoker for wood pellets and coal and be done with it-little to no smoke and low unburned ash levels.
The other option is an EFM stoker for coal and putting it in your garage if you have one. AN EFM DF520 will cost you less to buy than a P+M stoker before installation.
chaikwa
ArboristSite Operative
Global Hydronics were junk. And stainless. Hawken is now making their own units at a facility in Muskegon Michigan, and final assembly and distribution takes place in Shelby Michigan at their headquarters. Nothing on a Hawken is stainless anymore!
RiverRocket
ArboristSite Guru
From what I've been reading, The older Hawkens where a totally different boiler than the new ones
The new ones have the following features:
Constructed of 1/4"cold rolled steel (the best from what i understand) better than stainless or Mild steel
round fire box (better than square or rectangle)
Glassifications (Better for burning green or wet wood) more efficient
20/yr Warranty
http://hawkenenergy.com/
The new ones have the following features:
Constructed of 1/4"cold rolled steel (the best from what i understand) better than stainless or Mild steel
round fire box (better than square or rectangle)
Glassifications (Better for burning green or wet wood) more efficient
20/yr Warranty
http://hawkenenergy.com/
Owb
If your going to buy one of the (*&^%$^&*( things buy one with boiler plate which will have no issues with CAVITATION CORROSION which is a dirty word that is never never mentioned by the manufactureres using non boiler plate steels.
There is no effficient way to burn green wood BTW unless you are burning wood chips in a wood chip stoker.
If your going to buy one of the (*&^%$^&*( things buy one with boiler plate which will have no issues with CAVITATION CORROSION which is a dirty word that is never never mentioned by the manufactureres using non boiler plate steels.
There is no effficient way to burn green wood BTW unless you are burning wood chips in a wood chip stoker.
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chaikwa
ArboristSite Operative
So why doesn't this happen in ALL mild steel "(*&^%$^&*(" things at a relatively uniform rate? Or for that matter, why doesn't it happen at ALL in some boilers? And how does boiler plate differ from mild steel from a metallurgical composition standpoint?
Yes, a chip stoker. That was suggested to me by the owner of Portage and Main. So instead of cutting and splitting wood that I already have, I could BUY chips. Or buy a chipper to chip the wood I already have. Somehow, that doesn't seem like the most fiscally responsible thing I could do, especially with the price of a used chipper that would reliably chip the amount of wood I would need in a timely manner being about one and a half times the cost of the OWB system itself. Now if I owned a tree service company to begin with, that might be a different story.
walkerdogman85
ArboristSite Operative
I have a hardy h4 that I had installed 14 months ago. I have had it running for this winter for 9 months and to date I have not had any trouble! It's very simple to maintain, parts are very cheap and not hard to find. I went with it mainly because I know alot of people have them here in central ohio and when I called a central boiler dealer he never called me back!!! My wife and I couldn't be happier cause we have total electric and it cut our bill by 2/3s! I was worried about smoke cause I have seen a pile of them smoke but from what I have learned is that it's all in how you prepare or season your wood. When I first got it I left all of my wood huge if it would fit in the door I burnt it, we'll in my opinion that was a mistake cause it would smoke like a train!! So when a friend of mine and I built a log splitter we made it with a 4 way wedge so the splits are about 5" and smaller. The wood dries better and little to no smoke!! And after the first cycle all I see is beat waves coming out of the stack! I have somewhat close neighbors and they have never complained about smoke and most are interested in buying one! I would recommend a rain cap on any brand you buy! As far a stainless goes there have been alot of hardy going strong for alot of years, a guy I work with built his boiler out of mild steel and has had to patch it twice in 15 years because it rotted out, he said he wishes he would have made it out of stainless. Stick with the main brands and what you can afford and I believe you be happy. Mine cost 9600.00 installed.
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IT all has to do with the CARBON CONTENT OF THE STEEL and how deep the pockets are of the builders as well as the opportunity cost for building these things.
One of the folks over at ********** added firebrick to a CB boiler his father owns and he had a huge temperature jump after mortaring in fire brick on the side and end walls and laying firebrick in the floor. I told him to fill the firebox half full or more of firebrick and he will have a huge increase in temperature with a small burn and add a barmetric damper after the flue with a horizontal run of pipe instead of an induced draft fan like he intends to do and he will not need an induced draft fan to begin with.
Boiler plate has a high carbon content.
Boiler plate that is 1/4"-1/2" thick has huge advantage over mild steel.
If these manufacurers used large amounts of firebrick and told the owners of
these things to stop burning green wood and used thin splits of short wood
they would have fewer issues and hotter fires and less smoke.
I do not see them seeing the light about this and building a boiler with the
existing high efficeincy designs of indoor wood and coal boilers and helping
the current owners of these things because it costs money and reduces their
bottom line/net income.
A trailer load of pea or rice coal/anthracite coal dust and an EFM stoker will
cost you less money unless you have a sawmill nearby from whom you can
purchase wood chips and sawdust economically to feed a chip burner.
Portage and Main might gain a larger following if they built a wood and
coal boiler which-
1. used 1/2 boiler plate
2. a large water volume 1,000 gallons plus
3. a firebrick lined fire box and shaker grates
4. 3 passes of horizontal or vertical firetubes like many hard and soft coal boilers
Every one knows what a good boiler is designed to do with multipass designs and
they have yet to do it for the small boiler owner simply becuase it costs more to build.
If these builders stacked three or four sets of fire tubes in a longer bodied gassers and eliminated their so called turbolators they would have better gasser boiler BTW these turbolators/baffles were actully
designed for mixing material to liquify it in pipes transporting liquids.
chaikwa
ArboristSite Operative
How does the heat get thru the fire brick to get to the water jacket to heat the water? I realize the WHOLE firebox isn't lined with the brick, but covering any of it up limits the heat transfer area of the water jacket, acting like an insulator. And that in turn would naturally raise the temperatures in the firebox because it can't be transferred thru the area that the fire brick now occupies. At least that's the way it plays out in my mind.
Can boiler plate be rolled into a round shape? I always thought it was too brittle for that kind of forming.
If I had to split down my wood into something like that used in an indoor wood stove, it would kind of take away an advantage I have of not having to handle the wood more than I already do.
I used to sell and deliver coal, so I'm a little familiar with it, and yes, it provides a nice, even and HOT heat. But around here, (and probably anywhere else where it's not mined near-by), it's going for over $250 a ton. Judging by what I know about coal, I would need about 30 tons to get me thru a season, and that would cost about $7500. That's about what I spent in fuel oil this year, so where's the advantage?
Actually, there are a number of manufacturers of OWB's, both conventional and gassers, that use multiple heat transfer tubes. My friend up the street has one made by, (I think), Tarm. He is CONSTANTLY having to clean the tubes because they plug up with creosote. And he's using seasoned wood. I can't imagine using green wood. He'd be cleaning them 3 times a week instead of once.
I don't PLAN on using green wood and I know it's not efficient, but I have a couple tree services that give me wood, and if for some reason I HAVE to burn green stuff, I at least want that option. I'm not going for the most efficiency, I'm going for convenience and lower heating costs than that of the oil I now use. All my wood is free except for the labor I'll have into preparing it, and even if I achieve a high efficiency, I'm going to be using a minimum of 20 cords a year. When I'm doing that much wood, I don't think there's going to be a big difference in 20 or 30 cords in terms of labor involved. I'll actually be doing in excess of 100 cords as I'll be preparing it for 3 other friends on a processor that I'm building. I want to have a giant pile of wood that we can all draw off of when needed and it will be loaded into their trucks or trailers with a front end loader, like dirt.
Now for someone that might only go thru 8 or 10 cords a year and prepares it all by hand, yes, I can see the issue of high efficiency. But for the everyday user that most likely gets his wood for free and enjoys, (to a point!), messing around with cutting and splitting it, I don't see a 10 or 20 percent efficiency gain as anything substantial. To me, it certainly wouldn't be worth the extra cost of a gasser. I Want to have a OWB that I throw wood into and get heat out of. That's it! I don't care if I have to feed it once, twice or three times a day as long as it provides the heat I need and the oil burner isn't kicking on.
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OWB issues
Boiler plate is heat rolled and formed and has a high carbon and manganese content.
If you plan on monster pile of wood plan on plenty of water and ice and snow as a given state of affairs.
The issue with firewood is handling and rehandling it; I cut my firewood to 12 inch lengths simply because long splits get very heavy and snow and ice becomes an issue because I burn 12 plus cords annually with burning coal.
High quality firebrick does two things, it absorbs the heat and sheds the heat back into the firebox which adds back the heat from the thermal mass of the firebrick.
An EFM coal stoker uses a bottom fed retort with a forced draft fan firing under the coal fire which feeds a huge amount of combustion air that can be varied in volume by regulating both the coal fed per hour and the amount of forced draft air volume in cubic foot per hour of air for combustion.
Fire tubes do two things, absorb heat from combustion and radiate it back into the water surrounding them if a hot water system is used.
The Tarm folks tell all the owners that the tubes must be wire brushed to be kept open while burning and the boiler has to be shut down to clean them.
The idea is that the more water you have to heat the more thermal mass you have to heat and shed back into the heating space and the residual heat that returns back to the boiler reduces the amount of heat needed to reheat it.
Lets say you have an 8,000 gallon surplus insulated railroad tank car that you purchased to store hot water for heating.
8,000 gallons of water weighs 8.34 pounds per gallon +-=> 66,720 pounds of water at 50 degrees of temperature. This 50 degree water is already able to absorb additional heat energy for you.
Just to round it off lets say you have 67,000 pounds of water at 50 degrees SO;
assuming you want to raise the the water temperature to 160 degrees for heating
you need to raise the 8,000 gallons of water 110 degrees to 160 degrees in a batch burn which is the most efficient method as the fire will get hot and stay hot until the 8,000 gallons of water is heated in one cycle.
It takes one BTU to raise one pound of water one degree in temperature.
In order to raise 67,000 pounds of water one degree in temperature it will
require 67,000 BTU
In order to raise 67,000 pounds of water 110 degrees it will require you to create 7,370,000 BTU of heat energy to heat the 8,000 gallons of water
SO lets say you use an EFM stoker burning slowly at 10 pounds per hour of anthracite its net BTU per hour rounded off is 75,000 BTU per hour.
It will require the stoker to burn 10 pounds per hour for 99 hours(rounded higher) to obtain the 160 degree temperature for cut off and idle. This is 990 pounds of anthracite coal burned in 99 hours of batch burning being 4 days and 3 hours.
This tank then has the useable heat energy in temperature of 160 degree's in 8,000 gallons of water to make domestic hot water and also heat living space.
SO lets say for simplicities sake you burn from October 1 to May 1 with a 24-hour a day burn with one stoker circulating 25 gallons per minute between the stoker, the living space and the storage tank(not including standby heat loss which will be minimal because the tank is insulated).
240 days burning coal through the stoker
24 hours per day at 10 pounds per hour
240 pounds per day times 240 days equals
29 tons of anthracite coal
During this time the stoker will have produced 432,000,000 Million BTU of heat energy for hydronic heating and domestic hot water in a shed or garage for your use no matter the heat loss.
The lowest setting for the DF520 is 7.5 pounds per hour which creates 56,000 BTU per hour of heat energy for your use. At this rate you would consume 21.6 tons of anthracite coal per season and would have created 322,560,000 BTU of heat energy for your use. Again the more hot water you have in storage the better.
Soft coal would cost less but you would burn more of it; BUT saying that a metalllurigical grade soft coal costs much less-2/3 less than good washed anthracite coal of any size
.
If you have hot water before the heating season your system will be better prepared for the heat load as the water is preheated and as it is closed system there is no water loss.
it all depends on your opportunity cost.
I do not remember the name of the member that feeds his boiler with a skid loader but I would chat with him via a PM about water storage.
Boiler plate is heat rolled and formed and has a high carbon and manganese content.
If you plan on monster pile of wood plan on plenty of water and ice and snow as a given state of affairs.
The issue with firewood is handling and rehandling it; I cut my firewood to 12 inch lengths simply because long splits get very heavy and snow and ice becomes an issue because I burn 12 plus cords annually with burning coal.
High quality firebrick does two things, it absorbs the heat and sheds the heat back into the firebox which adds back the heat from the thermal mass of the firebrick.
An EFM coal stoker uses a bottom fed retort with a forced draft fan firing under the coal fire which feeds a huge amount of combustion air that can be varied in volume by regulating both the coal fed per hour and the amount of forced draft air volume in cubic foot per hour of air for combustion.
Fire tubes do two things, absorb heat from combustion and radiate it back into the water surrounding them if a hot water system is used.
The Tarm folks tell all the owners that the tubes must be wire brushed to be kept open while burning and the boiler has to be shut down to clean them.
The idea is that the more water you have to heat the more thermal mass you have to heat and shed back into the heating space and the residual heat that returns back to the boiler reduces the amount of heat needed to reheat it.
Lets say you have an 8,000 gallon surplus insulated railroad tank car that you purchased to store hot water for heating.
8,000 gallons of water weighs 8.34 pounds per gallon +-=> 66,720 pounds of water at 50 degrees of temperature. This 50 degree water is already able to absorb additional heat energy for you.
Just to round it off lets say you have 67,000 pounds of water at 50 degrees SO;
assuming you want to raise the the water temperature to 160 degrees for heating
you need to raise the 8,000 gallons of water 110 degrees to 160 degrees in a batch burn which is the most efficient method as the fire will get hot and stay hot until the 8,000 gallons of water is heated in one cycle.
It takes one BTU to raise one pound of water one degree in temperature.
In order to raise 67,000 pounds of water one degree in temperature it will
require 67,000 BTU
In order to raise 67,000 pounds of water 110 degrees it will require you to create 7,370,000 BTU of heat energy to heat the 8,000 gallons of water
SO lets say you use an EFM stoker burning slowly at 10 pounds per hour of anthracite its net BTU per hour rounded off is 75,000 BTU per hour.
It will require the stoker to burn 10 pounds per hour for 99 hours(rounded higher) to obtain the 160 degree temperature for cut off and idle. This is 990 pounds of anthracite coal burned in 99 hours of batch burning being 4 days and 3 hours.
This tank then has the useable heat energy in temperature of 160 degree's in 8,000 gallons of water to make domestic hot water and also heat living space.
SO lets say for simplicities sake you burn from October 1 to May 1 with a 24-hour a day burn with one stoker circulating 25 gallons per minute between the stoker, the living space and the storage tank(not including standby heat loss which will be minimal because the tank is insulated).
240 days burning coal through the stoker
24 hours per day at 10 pounds per hour
240 pounds per day times 240 days equals
29 tons of anthracite coal
During this time the stoker will have produced 432,000,000 Million BTU of heat energy for hydronic heating and domestic hot water in a shed or garage for your use no matter the heat loss.
The lowest setting for the DF520 is 7.5 pounds per hour which creates 56,000 BTU per hour of heat energy for your use. At this rate you would consume 21.6 tons of anthracite coal per season and would have created 322,560,000 BTU of heat energy for your use. Again the more hot water you have in storage the better.
Soft coal would cost less but you would burn more of it; BUT saying that a metalllurigical grade soft coal costs much less-2/3 less than good washed anthracite coal of any size
.If you have hot water before the heating season your system will be better prepared for the heat load as the water is preheated and as it is closed system there is no water loss.
it all depends on your opportunity cost.
I do not remember the name of the member that feeds his boiler with a skid loader but I would chat with him via a PM about water storage.
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Wow , my head hurts , so much math .....
waldershrek
ArboristSite Operative
I just replaced an old Taylor and went through the whole decision making process. Really most all the new stoves are good quality wise (CB, Heatmor, Empyre, etc) it just comes down to dealer. I ultimately went with a Empyre pro 200 because:
- It was the simplest. I didn't like the Starfire control panel on the CB (one more thing to break in my opinion and it's not covered under warranty) and I didn't like the ash auger on the Heatmor. It was too low to the ground to get a bucket or anything under it. Dealers solution was "dig a hole in the ground to put the bucket in". Not really an option when it's on concrete.
- The Empyre uses generic parts. If a blower motor craps out or something I can just buy another motor from a supply place instead of having to go through a dealer.
- It was the simplest. I didn't like the Starfire control panel on the CB (one more thing to break in my opinion and it's not covered under warranty) and I didn't like the ash auger on the Heatmor. It was too low to the ground to get a bucket or anything under it. Dealers solution was "dig a hole in the ground to put the bucket in". Not really an option when it's on concrete.
- The Empyre uses generic parts. If a blower motor craps out or something I can just buy another motor from a supply place instead of having to go through a dealer.
Arbonaut
Go Climb It
Definitely get stainless, water-cooled door and no legs. Heatmor is probably the best. I agree that you should get the next size bigger than you think you need. 200,000 will do most homes. If you heat the pool, get twice that.
Poston5
ArboristSite Operative
Hardy all the way, for the most important reason they are simple.
AIM
Addicted to ArboristSite
Oh I'm sure they see the light. They see that profit and sales is what keeps them in business. Sure they could do all kinds of things to make their units better but then they also see that they will price themselves right out of business.
I see guys on here complaining all the time about what OWB manufacturers should do to make their units better. All the time you forget that "bottom line/income" is what it's ALL about.
They are building a unit that falls into a certain price point and allows for a certain profit.
mtfallsmikey
Addicted to ArboristSite
More important than the make of boiler, is doing a complete heat loss calc. on you home, and whatever other buildings that you may want to heat now or later, and size your piping/pumps/HX's properly.
heaterman
New Member
There's a number of reasons the US Navy selected "round" for the basic shape of our submarines and strength is the primary attribute. Good eye. :msp_thumbup:
RiverRocket
ArboristSite Guru
I got some pricing today on the Hawken
HE-2100: $7,395 With everything i need to hook up $10,353
Orion: $9,395 With everything i need to hook up`$12,395
The Orion is the smaller unit with gasification that complies with EPA regulations
The HE-2100 is the Large unit with blower in the door
I like the larger unit because of it's simple design and round fire box, but i'm sure it will use allot more wood...It holds 368/gal of water....Just worried the HE-2100 would be over kill? This larger unit doesn't have to comply with EPA regulations because it's classified as industrial use?
The Orion holds 107 gal of water
The one that i really wanted (HE-1100) is no longer available due to EPA regulations
Any advice on my choice on these two units would be appreciated
I'm still open minded to any other Brands
HE-2100: $7,395 With everything i need to hook up $10,353
Orion: $9,395 With everything i need to hook up`$12,395
The Orion is the smaller unit with gasification that complies with EPA regulations
The HE-2100 is the Large unit with blower in the door
I like the larger unit because of it's simple design and round fire box, but i'm sure it will use allot more wood...It holds 368/gal of water....Just worried the HE-2100 would be over kill? This larger unit doesn't have to comply with EPA regulations because it's classified as industrial use?
The Orion holds 107 gal of water
The one that i really wanted (HE-1100) is no longer available due to EPA regulations
Any advice on my choice on these two units would be appreciated
I'm still open minded to any other Brands
RiverRocket
ArboristSite Guru
I was looking on Central Boiler's website and found this unit...allot cheaper than the Hawken i've been looking at....can anyone give me any feedback on this unit...Thanks again for everyone's help
Classic CL 4030
US $5,490 MSRP *
-$200 Spring Rebate
$5,290
Door 20"x 20"
Firebox 40"x30"x26"
Heat Transfer Area 52 sq. ft.
Weight 1,350 lbs
Water Capacity 140/gal
Classic CL 4030
US $5,490 MSRP *
-$200 Spring Rebate
$5,290
Door 20"x 20"
Firebox 40"x30"x26"
Heat Transfer Area 52 sq. ft.
Weight 1,350 lbs
Water Capacity 140/gal
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