I have an idea on how to get rid of coals faster. What you think?

[Whitespider]

WS usually states that the secondary combustion stoves do not and/or cannot work or be used for primary heat, or equivalent words to that effect, while contending he's just saying they don't work for him and defending against persecution. That irritates the many of us who actually use them for primary heat. Personally I object to the tactic of inflating what are for others of us minor or non-issues into fatal flaws that would mean the designs are useless - it is to me a dis-information campaign based on unrelated idealogical issues of which I have no interest. There are people who read this stuff that do not know the background of the members and who are looking for real information, and that is obscured by noise, and this bothers me.

That whole paragraph is crap Chris-PA... total crap.

I've never stated the elitist stoves do not/can not be used for heating... not even equivalent words. How many times do I have to correct such a claim? My contention has always been they are not always the best choice for all applications. I defy you to quote me stating, even equivalently, they always do not and/or can not ever work or be used for heating. I don't defend against persecution, or even claim to... but I do defend against the misrepresentation of my words, such as you just presented above.
Give me a friggin' break already‼

And inflating minor or non-issues?? So you're saying it's only an issue of significance if you (and those who agree with you) think it is?? You pompous, haughty SOB.

You're advocating the censorship of information with the above statement because you don't see it as worthy of consideration, because you don't want it presented... what I see as significant or worthy is not up to your higher intellectual standard and therefore insignificant.
If you don't see it as a significant issue or simply don't agree with it... it's just "noise" or "misinformation" and should be silenced because, according to you, it isn't "real" information. I just gotta' tell ya' man... friend or no friend... if you were standing in front of me right now...

Who's being ideological here??

For that matter... (Del_, are you paying attention??)... who's being elitist here??
*

 

[X-S-FLA]

Being a newbie to this forum and to heating-with-wood, I'm largely ignorant on the subject.
When I get out of the South Florida oven for retirement, and being a bit of a survivalist, I
want to minimize my reliance on infrastructure. That said, if it weren't for EPA regs, I would
likely turn to the old fashioned wood-burning stove for several reasons. I too am a bit green
in that I've got a small solar system, a cistern, and capture my A/C drip water as well as rain.
Do I necessarily want to add crap to the air we breathe? Not really.
However, if/when $#!T hits the proverbial fan, I wouldn't want to worry about how I'll get
a replacement cat for the box I'll be forced to purchase / install. Getting rid of coals faster...?
Knowing the little I do...I'd simply find a way to supply more airflow; whether that means a
grate, drilling a hole, or opening the door a bit. I'll adapt. It also appears, based on responses,
that the type, and condition, of wood being burned could be a factor. Unfortunately, unless
we want to keep lighting a new batch of wood, the coals seem to be a necessary by-product
of the preceding burn cycle. For me, adding medium to high-tech equipment to regulate the
flow of air is, again, something I personally don't want to add. Granted, technology advances
can, and often do, positively affect our lives, but sometimes to good ol' ways just can't be
ignored.
Sorry for the intrusion into the 'heated' debate.
mike

 

[Cerran]

That whole paragraph is crap Chris-PA... total crap.

I've never stated the elitist stoves do not/can not be used for heating... not even equivalent words. How many times do I have to correct such a claim? My contention has always been they are not always the best choice for all applications. I defy you to quote me stating, even equivalently, they always do not and/or can not ever work or be used for heating. I don't defend against persecution, or even claim to... but I do defend against the misrepresentation of my words, such as you just presented above.
Give me a friggin' break already‼

And inflating minor or non-issues?? So you're saying it's only an issue of significance if you (and those who agree with you) think it is?? You pompous, haughty SOB.

You're advocating the censorship of information with the above statement because you don't see it as worthy of consideration, because you don't want it presented... what I see as significant or worthy is not up to your higher intellectual standard and therefore insignificant.
If you don't see it as a significant issue or simply don't agree with it... it's just "noise" or "misinformation" and should be silenced because, according to you, it isn't "real" information. I just gotta' tell ya' man... friend or no friend... if you were standing in front of me right now...

Who's being ideological here??

For that matter... (Del_, are you paying attention??)... who's being elitist here??
*

You have to admit WS, you take every opportunity to bash on the newer designs even in situations where isn't not even certain the stove is the issue. It's a lot like a debate over fuel injection versus carburetors on cars, sure carburetors have their place but for most applications fuel injection is a far superior technology provided it is implemented properly.

 

[fixit1960]

We don't seem to be able to have a rational discussion of these stoves, because like usual in the US these days everything is stated in terms of absolutes, and every issue accumulates so much emotional baggage it becomes impossible to discuss it.

WS usually states that the secondary combustion stoves do not and/or cannot work or be used for primary heat, or equivalent words to that effect, while contending he's just saying they don't work for him and defending against persecution. That irritates the many of us who actually use them for primary heat. Personally I object to the tactic of inflating what are for others of us minor or non-issues into fatal flaws that would mean the designs are useless - it is to me a dis-information campaign based on unrelated idealogical issues of which I have no interest. There are people who read this stuff that do not know the background of the members and who are looking for real information, and that is obscured by noise, and this bothers me.

Pieces of steel and iron don't have political agendas or harbor elitist attitudes. These are stoves - certain types have advantages and disadvantages and particular characteristics, and some design implementations are better than others. Unfortunately we cannot have discussions about that because all of them get derailed.

Chris-PA from my perspective the "obscured by noise" statement seems Elitist on your part. No 2 ways around it. And just because it's Spidey's opinion are you automatically saying it should not be heard? This is still America and if we want to take the time to express our opinion of a product, it should be our right. Maybe the political meanderings are off base at times, but the facts about what works and what don't should not have to pass your test based on YOUR personal experience in order to be valid. He gives his opinion, you give yours and I give mine. We may not like each others but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be heard......let the listeners sort them out. Just like in real life......

 

[Chris-PA]

And inflating minor or non-issues?? So you're saying it's only an issue of significance if you (and those who agree with you) think it is?? You pompous, haughty SOB.

Quite clearly I was not saying that. My actual statement was:

"Personally I object to the tactic of inflating what are for others of us minor or non-issues into fatal flaws that would mean the designs are useless"

Which does not say nobody has experienced these issues, it means these issues are not problems for everyone - which we already know as people who have the exact same stove that you cannot make work are quite happy with the performance. Are there ways to fix these problems? Who knows, because such discussions are declared off topic by WS so nobody can find out that maybe these stoves work after all.

My statement that you object to was in a comment lamenting the fact that we cannot have a discussion about the characteristics of these pieces of equipment, to learn what types and designs work best, what situations present problems and what can be done to mitigate them - like this thread started out to be before it was derailed like every other one. I'm hardly going to dig through your voluminous commentary about these "EPA" stoves to find if you may have mentioned they work for some a time or two - and then continued on about how air flow from the top doesn't work and one must have a grate and airflow from below, they have to be modified to work, ad nauseam. I'm not recalling much about how you used the PE Specturm without modifications, other than to have it utterly fail - it could not even raise your shop 10deg on a warm day. So I'm pretty clear on what you've been communicating, and I suspect my interpretation of it is not unique.

The sad thing is that I don't care in the least if someone burns a stove without cats or secondary combustion - my dad does and it works great for him - and I'd prefer that any further limitations were left to local governments. I am not on a crusade, I'd like to discuss how various stoves work, and perhaps learn a few things that might make heating with wood more effective.

 

[Cerran]

Chris-PA from my perspective the "obscured by noise" statement seems Elitist on your part. No 2 ways around it. And just because it's Spidey's opinion are you automatically saying it should not be heard? This is still America and if we want to take the time to express our opinion of a product, it should be our right. Maybe the political meanderings are off base at times, but the facts about what works and what don't should not have to pass your test based on YOUR personal experience in order to be valid. He gives his opinion, you give yours and I give mine. We may not like each others but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be heard......let the listeners sort them out. Just like in real life......

That's a nice strawman argument there, but that isn't what he was saying. Expressing your opinion is fine, but complaining when you get your feet held to the fire for such opinions and asking for a reasonable basis for such opinions makes no sense.

The only group I see here resorting to name calling is the group that doesn't like the newer design of stoves and then when we ask for solid reasons why we get ridiculed as being "elitist".

 

[Chris-PA]

Chris-PA from my perspective the "obscured by noise" statement seems Elitist on your part. No 2 ways around it. And just because it's Spidey's opinion are you automatically saying it should not be heard? This is still America and if we want to take the time to express our opinion of a product, it should be our right. Maybe the political meanderings are off base at times, but the facts about what works and what don't should not have to pass your test based on YOUR personal experience in order to be valid. He gives his opinion, you give yours and I give mine. We may not like each others but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be heard......let the listeners sort them out. Just like in real life......

I'll stand by the noise comment. This thread is a perfect example - we could have talked more about coaling, what contributes to it and how to mitigate it - heck I and others tried tried to, only to be declared off-topic. Maybe I might learn some better techniques than the ones I mentioned. I'm hardly trying to shut down anyone's opinion, but continually forcing the discussion back to the same limited, tiresome old areas squashes any chance at learning.

 

[X-S-FLA]

So, back to the coaling issue. Forgive me but would someone explain exactly
what the issue is? Wood burning down too fast to coals? Too many coals
accumulated? The desire to turn 'em into ash to get rid of 'em quicker?
PITA to separate them from ash?
It seems you want some coals left behind when you return home from a day's
work. When we do visit N. Ga. for a couple weeks, I always appreciate a few
coals left in the AM when I wake up. It's easier to get the next fire started.

 

[Cerran]

So, back to the coaling issue. Forgive me but would someone explain exactly
what the issue is? Wood burning down too fast to coals? Too many coals
accumulated? The desire to turn 'em into ash to get rid of 'em quicker?
PITA to separate them from ash?
It seems you want some coals left behind when you return home from a day's
work. When we do visit N. Ga. for a couple weeks, I always appreciate a few
coals left in the AM when I wake up. It's easier to get the next fire started.

The primary issue is with some types of stoves there seems to be an issue with a buildup of coals inside the firebox over time. The recurring theme seems to be that it's worse when the weather is cold and the user is utilizing hardwoods and not softwoods. Some users don't have the ability to turn the stove up during the burn cycle because they are away from the house during the day or asleep at night so the coals don't fully burn down since the primary air doesn't get turned up.

What's even more maddening is that not everyone has this issue even across the same stove models and there isn't enough data from users who do have the issue to understand if there is a root cause either in wood supply or specific stove design. Even stranger is that the problem seems to be limited to non-cat reburn stoves (or at least I've not heard of the issue with a cat stove).

 

[Whitespider]

No Chris-PA, it was crystal friggin' clear what you were saying... and you're still sayin' it...

...but continually forcing the discussion back to the same limited, tiresome old areas squashes any chance at learning.

Because the discussion ain't worthy of your higher intellectual standard it is therefore limited and tiresome.
Maybe you didn't notice... but a couple of 'em were asking questions about how the grates were added, what materials were used, how the air was directed under them, and so-forth... they were actually trying to learn something. But see, you didn't care about that, it was beneath your intellectual standard and therefore limited and tiresome... insignificant, not a "learning" opportunity. The idea of cutting and modifying an elitist stove is "hillbilly engineering" in your mind... not worthy of serious consideration... limited, tiresome, insignificant... just noise or misinformation, certainly not "real" information... a dis-information campaign... and worst of all, "irritating" to your higher intellectual self.

This thread was not about burning down excessive coals... it was about avoiding the building of them in the first place.
You were off topic...
If you wanna' learn new ways of burning them down after they've formed... start your own damn thread, ask the damn question.
*

 

[Erik B]

I think what all the disagreement is about is that stove manufacturers do a very poor job of giving a realistic measure of heating performance. This means a person has to do extensive research before choosing a stove to make sure what they buy will work for them. I do think the newer combustion technology is sound and better than the pre-epa designs, however that being said many of the new stoves obviously don't work right for many people.

My point is we should be asking the right questions so that a list of stoves can be developed based on user feedback where they work and where they don't. I have a sneaking suspicion that for some of the stoves it's because of the stove design and the type of wood being burned. Hardwoods in my limited experience with them tend to have a longer coaling stage than softwoods which is obvious when I burn mountain ash or apple.

It's almost as if for the new stoves there needs to be a setting on the secondaries and primary air to adjust the ratio to a different setting when burning softwood versus hardwood. Either that or just buy a cat stove and be done with it. When I pull out the factory built fireplace in a few years, I'll likely move to a Blaze King cat stove myself.

Why would you be removing the factory built fireplace? I also have a factory built zero clearance fireplace that I installed an insert into.

 

[X-S-FLA]

The primary issue is with some types of stoves there seems to be an issue with a buildup of coals inside the firebox over time. The recurring theme seems to be that it's worse when the weather is cold and the user is utilizing hardwoods and not softwoods. Some users don't have the ability to turn the stove up during the burn cycle because they are away from the house during the day or asleep at night so the coals don't fully burn down since the primary air doesn't get turned up.

What's even more maddening is that not everyone has this issue even across the same stove models and there isn't enough data from users who do have the issue to understand if there is a root cause either in wood supply or specific stove design. Even stranger is that the problem seems to be limited to non-cat reburn stoves (or at least I've not heard of the issue with a cat stove).

Okay, so, you want some coals but not an excessive amount to chew up the available
volume in the box when you have to reload...right?
Would there be any tie-in with the colder temps and wind-speed outside? If yes, then
perhaps a low-tech solution:
Install some kind of wind-sock device outside, have it capture the wind (air-flow) and
funnel it into something like that flexible clothes dryer ducting. Venturi that down to,
say, a 1" I.D. hose, bring that in to the stove. Adapt it to a manifold that spreads out
the inbound airflow to the coal-bed. This way, if there's more wind outside (implying
colder inside temps ?), some of it will be directed in to coax those pesky coals.
Stupid? or doable? I agree it's a bit clugy but...
I suppose you'd need some kind of check valve in the circuit...
heck, whada I know

 

[Cerran]

Why would you be removing the factory built fireplace? I also have a factory built zero clearance fireplace that I installed an insert into.

Because I'm going to knock out the hideous lava rock surround and then remove the fireplace and go to a free standing stove. I have plenty of other projects that have priority before then however.

 

[Whitespider]

Heck Chris, just the term "elitist stove" is "irritating" to you.
And it means nothing, it's just a slang label no different than calling a log cut to firebox length a "round"... which it ain't, it's cylinder.
*

 

[Erik B]

Because I'm going to knock out the hideous lava rock surround and then remove the fireplace and go to a free standing stove. I have plenty of other projects that have priority before then however.

Is your fire place on an outside wall? Mine is. A pic of your existing setup would be nice. Thanks

 

[Chris-PA]

Because the discussion ain't worthy of your higher intellectual standard it is therefore limited and tiresome.
Maybe you didn't notice... but a couple of 'em were asking questions about how the grates were added, what materials were used, how the air was directed under them, and so-forth... they were actually trying to learn something. But see, you didn't care about that, it was beneath your intellectual standard and therefore limited and tiresome... insignificant, not a "learning" opportunity. The idea of cutting and modifying an elitist stove is "hillbilly engineering" in your mind... not worthy serious consideration... limited, tiresome, insignificant... just noise or misinformation, certainly not "real" information... a dis-information campaign... and worst of all, "irritating" to your higher intellectual self.

Then perhaps you will quote where I wrote anything about grates in this thread, or in any way discouraged those discussions. On second though don't bother as this will be my last response to you - once again you've turned a thread into something all about you.

And it means nothing, it's just a slang label no different than calling a log cut to firebox length a "round"

It might be no different if "round" were a pejorative term in the way "elitist" is being used, but it isn't as you well know. Quite obviously there is a difference, although you would like the "elitist" term to stick as it furthers your agenda. Typical of you.

 

[Cerran]

Is your fire place on an outside wall? Mine is. A pic of your existing setup would be nice. Thanks

Yeah it's on an outside wall. First picture is the reload about 10 minutes ago and the amount of coals I have after loading the stove this AM with two smaller pieces at 7:30.

The loaded picture is how I load the stove typically but I can pack more in there if I need more heat or get more creative with the loading.

The final picture is about 1 minute after I've closed the stove door and opened the primary and secondary air.

The ash buildup inside is I'm fairly certain since a day after Thanksgiving although I'm not sure if my 11 year old ever shoveled any ash out at some point when he loaded it. IN either case it doesn't seem atypical since the weather hasn't been cold (mid 20's to low 30's) and wood usage hasn't been very high.

 

[Whitespider]

Funny how I make this about me... I was pretty sure my last two posts were about you Chris... not me.
Yep... I just read 'em again... they were about you... not me.
But don't go away mad... heck, I should be the one mad and I'm already over it.
*

 

[Whitespider]

...I'm going to knock out the hideous lava rock surround...

I kind'a like the looks of that rock.
But, at the same time, I ain't seein' the rest of the room either.
*

 

[Erik B]

Yeah it's on an outside wall. First picture is the reload about 10 minutes ago and the amount of coals I have after loading the stove this AM with two smaller pieces at 7:30.

The loaded picture is how I load the stove typically but I can pack more in there if I need more heat or get more creative with the loading.

The final picture is about 1 minute after I've closed the stove door and opened the primary and secondary air.
View attachment 394592 View attachment 394593 View attachment 394594 View attachment 394595

You have a way more massive set up than I have. I have an Earth Stove, Hotshot model. Pic attached. Just red brick around the fireplace.