Ancient Coast Live Oak Death Sentence?

[jomoco]

One of my very favorite trees in the world are the indigenous Coastal Live Oaks(Quercus agrifolia) of SoCal. These trees while not particularly tall, 75-85 feet, can grow laterally as much as vertically and even further.

On the Indian Res today I spent the entire day on a very very old creekside live oak that had spit a huge lateral off it's stump, crushing a fence and landing in an outdoor weight lifting and training area, thankfully un-occupied when the failure happened.

Winds were kickin up here yesterday at 25+ mph, and lots of trees and sections of trees hit the ground hard.

The interesting thing about this tree was it's huge canopy spread compared to it's height at 65 feet, the spread must have been 100 feet across before it lost that lateral branch of about 30 inches dia right off the stump of about 84 inches across at ground level.

I would estimate the tree's age at 500+ years old, and to all outward appearances, thriving creekside giant before it shed this huge lateral. There were old 18-24 inch branch removal callouses completely healed over and closed from prior work done from ground level.

But once this lateral shed off the stump, it provided an entrance to a huge dome of hollowed out decay atleast 3 feet across at the very center of the stump at ground level and below. But on an 84 inch across stump, could be considered negligible and natural for this ancient of a tree. I smelt no telltale odor of Armillaria inside, but there was a very fine coating of rust colored powder settled onto very punky decayed walls of failed wood deep inside the wound hole.

Growing inside this hollow dome was a huge clamshell fan shaped fruiting body of a fungus 6-8 inches across, and a root as wide as my wrist. It doesn't smell like Armillaria to me, so I'm having it ID'd at county ag, and hoping it's not Armillaria and that the lightening of end weight on the remaining big lateral limbs, will hold things in good stead till I get the lab results back on this fungus.

This tree still has every outward appearance of vitality and good health, and if this hollow stump is natural, and not the work of Armillaria, I'm going to recommend Cabling as a partial life pro-longing form of hospice care for the old giant. I'll also recommend they fence it's perimeter and install warning signs around it saying keep out no tresspassing/hazard tree. Anything but cutting this magnificent old Live Oak down.

However if the lab says Armillaria?

Considering the tree is in a somewhat remote area of the creek, as long as they move the weightlifters out and somewhere else, I feel it's worth taking a little time to get a positive diagnosis of the fungus before recommending death and no further remedial work to save it.

I don't suppose any of you guys know of any truly effective treatments for Armillaria do yu?

I keep thinking that putting an artificial halide growing light inside the hollow dome of that stump, would kill any fungus in there?

Any ideas on how to save this hollow old SoCal vet of a tree.

I'll post pics once I get the lab results in.

jomoco

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I'd love to see some pics of that! Those trees are magnificent! I think they rank right up there with the redwoods for amazing.

Thanks for trying to save it.


Let us know how it turns out!

 

[lego1970]

I've seen quite a few live oaks in the southeast and they are impressive, but I don't believe I've seen or at least I didn't know if I've seen a southern Cal coastal live oak. Is the tree in the open or is it in a stand of trees? Will it always grow lateral or is this just because of it's location? A Cottonwood tree in a farm field will grow lateraly if there is no competition, but in a stand of other Cottonwoods they grow upwards and stay pretty thin. Ash trees are the same way. In the wild they grow upwards and don't have the tendency to split, but in front yards where they have no competition they grow outward and have a tendency to split. If you have any pics that would be cool. I know the big live oaks in the Southeast are pretty cool looking, especially when that have that moss growing from them.

 

[jomoco]

I rather doubt the eastern live oaks are the same tree, I believe the eastern cousin is Quercus virginiana, not agrifolia.

Here in SoCal, the agrifolia's and sycamores(Platanus racemosa) are both indigenous trees with deep ties to indian tribal culture. The oaks provided both food and respite from the blistering sun, as well as firewood and lumber for tools and homes. The sycamores it is said, because of the composting of their deciduous leaves over decades and centuries, change the soil into an ideal form of clay, perfect for constructing adobe homes that were both cool in summer as well as fireproof!

I note however that there are few Indian homes or casinos these days built from adobe. But I have been in an adobe home before, and they really are amazingly cool during hot summer months quite naturally.

Here's a link to agrifolia pics and characteristics:

http://www.laspilitas.com/nature-of-california/plants/quercus-agrifolia

I need an Armillaria remedy guys!

jomoco

 

[lego1970]

I wasn't trying to imply that it's the same tree as the ones that grow in the southeast, I was meaning that I'm not sure if I've seen one while traveling in southern california. There is a rest area just north of San Diego on I-5 that had some shorter, yet broad crowned trees. To be honest, even though I've spend the night there several times, I never really checked out the trees to see what kind they are. Also I was just wondering if the so cal coastal live oak had a natural broad crown like the ones that grow in the southeast or if they normally have a narrow crown. Thanks for the links to the pics. Neat looking tree.

 

[D Mc]

I need an Armillaria remedy guys!jomoco

Need more info. This would be a great time to interject some pictures while you are waiting for the lab results. You didn't mention seeing the tailtale shoestring activity and your clamshell description sounds like a conk.

A 500+ year old tree is going to have some serious resources at its disposal if it is still showing vigorous growth. Has anything changed around this tree in the last 30 years? Make haste slowly.

I would love to see what is left structurally to work with on this tree. Giving this tree its space and keeping people away is an excellent idea.

Dave

 

[treeseer]

Why would armillaria be more of a removal order than other infections? a closer examination and risk assessment is needed.

re armillaria remedy, air and light can work--read the disease book.

below from WSU is a good approach.
Slightly affected plants.
Trees and shrubs which are not seriously affected may be helped. The soil should be removed from around the rotted parts of the trunk and larger roots to allow them to air dry. The infected areas should be cut out down to the healthy tissue and diseased tissues destroyed. Wash cutting tools in soap and water and sterilize them in rubbing alcohol afterward. Roots should be left exposed during summer, but covered over before freezing fall weather. The plant should be given proper fertilization and watering to promote good growth; however, avoid watering the exposed trunk and larger roots to keep this area of the plant as dry as possible. Whether or not the trunk and larger roots have been exposed for drying, always avoid watering trees and large shrubs where the trunk enters the ground.

If a plant is moderately affected and of special value to the owner, follow the above procedure. However, the greater the area of infection, the less chance the plant has of surviving.

 

[jomoco]

Lab results are negative for armillaria, but positive for Ganoderma lucidum.

The ganoderma is just as bad or even worse than armillaria. So it gets declared a hazard tree, but with a recommendation for treatment of the fungus via UV light exposure inside the stump to determine it's ability to burn out the fungus inside. Even the mycology expert at the county ag lab expressed the opinion that prolonged exposure to UV light would indeed kill the fungus exposed to it. Determining the extent of the rot inside the stump may be an impossibility, but it's worth a try.

Next visit to this tree should be an interesting project. It's an ideal locale for a little R&D since the weight lifting building about 40-50 feet from the stump has an electricity outlet. So a few extension cords, a few weather proof halide lights, safety tape and barricades, I should be good to go the UV light therapy route to eradicate atleast partially, a massive ganoderma lucidum infection in the very heart of this massive oak tree's giant stump.

It should prove an interesting fungal abatement experiment considering ganoderma's formiddable reputation as an oak giant slayer that kills fairly quickly according to the literature.

Of course I'll give them a hazard removal recommendation first, then an addendum recommending a one year experimental protocol using UV light therapy to try and save the tree, if it can be declared a hazard zone with restricted access.

I believe they'll go for it. If they don't I'll offer the treatment at no charge. And if they still say no, I'll reluctantly ax the old fogey.

Should have some pics of the tree and stump interior this weekend.

Any of you guys ever dealt with ganoderma lucidum fungus before? Apparently it's very popular for medicinal purposes in ancient and modern Chinese culture.

jomoco

 

[treeseer]

"...treatment of the fungus via UV light exposure inside the stump to determine it's ability to burn out the fungus inside. Even the mycology expert at the county ag lab expressed the opinion that prolonged exposure to UV light would indeed kill the fungus exposed to it."

cool i gotta try that on the attached tree! ganoderma applanatum i think--lucidum is redder--in 4 crevices, but the buttresses are intact



" Determining the extent of the rot inside the stump may be an impossibility, but it's worth a try."

this one is pretty hollow--at least 31" in one crevice, 17" in another.

"...ganoderma's formiddable reputation as an oak giant slayer that kills fairly quickly according to the literature."

not that simple--see dueling literature in the attached

"Of course I'll give them a hazard removal recommendation first"

just to cya? kinda chickenspit ainna? "Hazard" so often implies "removal" to folks, when it really means "act to mitigate".

"then an addendum recommending a one year experimental protocol using UV light therapy to try and save the tree"

and htf can you measure response in just one year? conk appearance is an indicator but not a sure one. give it 5; think tree time.

"if it can be declared a hazard zone with restricted access."

fence it or cut it? that gives the tree a death sentence. some bean counter will say what if...
how about measure the hollow etc. before jumping to that ok?

yes pics will be good

 

[jomoco]

Chicken spit?

Because I gave them an accurate diagnosis of why their prize oak shed a huge 30 inch lateral off it's stump?

You gotta problem with the truth about a terminal defect and recognised hazard being given to the owners of the tree?

My job is to tell it like it is first, then offer any remedial recommendations as an option, for them to decide, based on facts.

The shed limb crushed a fence and landed in a thankfully un-occupied weight training yard at the time.

Don't get all TV with me Treeseer, it aint like you to take on airs, particularly when I'm making an honest effort to save an otherwise extremely hazardous, terminally ill old oak tree.

jomoco

 

[Boa07]

I don't see anyone taking "airs" here except maybe you, I read people trying to provide you with their view on how best to proceed....perhaps if you did not want differing perspectives and opinions you should have stated that in the first place?

ganoderma's formiddable reputation as an oak giant slayer that kills fairly quickly according to the literature

I would politely suggest that if you intend on giving clients advice regarding the relationship between wood decay fungi and the tree host you expand your reading.

As Guy has indicated it is not simple or direct as is often assumed, and this assumption leads the observer in a certain and predictable direction.

Try getting hold of anything by L Boddy and ADM Rayner, or even better get hold of a copy of Francis Schwarze's latest book Diagnosis and prognosis of the development of wood decay in urban trees.

It is quite possible that we would share your concerns if we were on site with you...pictures would be interesting at the very least.

 

[jomoco]

So I take it your professional opinions are that neither armillaria or ganoderma presense in the tree is an immediate death sentence?

I read the literature as recommending immediate removal upon diagnosis of either of them.

Not recommending removal first would be dishonest since there's currently no recognised cures or treatments for A mellea or G lucidum infections on the market.

Am I mis-informed?

jomoco

 

[treeseer]

So I take it your professional opinions are that neither armillaria or ganoderma presense in the tree is an immediate death sentence?

Boa can speak for himself but the answer is Yes, Neither! These organisms are omnipresent in the air and soil--how can you condemn a tree based on their mere presence? It does not matter how many others jerk their knees in that direction, it is still wrong.

I read the literature as recommending immediate removal upon diagnosis of either of them.

I quoted out of 2 books, Boa mentioned several others--what literature are you reading?

Not recommending removal first would be dishonest since there's currently no recognised cures or treatments for A mellea or G lucidum infections on the market.

What does the market have to do with it? Air and light are recognized in the literature as treatments. Try re-reading, from Shigo on down.

You have a great idea with the UV but you may never get to use it if you throw the H word around and recommend removal. If it is not the result of systematic and professional diagnosis it is indefensible.

Any response to the other parts of my last post? opcorn:

 

[jomoco]

Well it's not as if things are just fine and dandy inside the heart of this oak tree now is it guys?

Tossing off huge laterals and crushing things might be considered a clue that a deadly terminal fungus is killing this tree from the inside out?

Suppose the owner has a grandchild who likes to play under the tree in question?

I like to save beautiful trees as much or more than many of you, but if a quantifiable known hazard exists in your client's tree? Then it is your responsibility as a professional arborist to inform your client of it immediately, and let them decide if the risks and cost of remedial treatments to prolong the tree's life are worth the known risk to people or property?

jomoco

 

[jefflovstrom]

Tough choice. Jon, maybe if there are some acorns you could gather and germinate for them it would soften the blow?

 

[jomoco]

Before I post pics of this oak and it's stump's interior hollow cavity, I'd like to express my hypothesis that this massive old tree is is actually secondary sprout growth off a tree that was actually cut or burned down at some point in it's past.

The now hollow dome inside is in my opinion, the outline of the original primary stump, that was engulfed by the secondary stump sprouts.

This could mean the age of this particular oak is far greater than it's present appearance indicates.

jomoco

 

[D Mc]

Tossing off huge laterals and crushing things might be considered a clue that a deadly terminal fungus is killing this tree from the inside out? jomoco

No, it would not necessarily. This tree is a prime example of the complexities of dealing with trees. Classic homeowner response to ants is "They are killing my tree!" because that is what they see.

You see rot in this tree and speculate that is the reason it is shedding this major limb. That might be so. It also might be in response to those 12 to 24inch limbs that were removed earlier and completely sealed over. The tree's response to these limb removals, assuming they were alive, would be to produce move vegetative growth (fill in the holes). This is a typical scenario that can create an imbalance and limb failure. That is one of the reasons why there is caution placed on removing large limbs.

I would have thought with a building 50 ft away on a tree this size to have had at least some construction damage, soil compaction, etc. But you state this tree is still vigorously growing, in my mind that is great.

The decay you mentioned in and of itself, without more detail, is not enough to warrant even concern. I have never seen a tree in the 500 to 1000 year old bracket that did NOT have decay. It is a balancing act.

Also, I am extremely disturbed by your use of the word "stump" in reference to the tree's lower trunk section. Is this a Freudian use of the term? Is it already a lost cause in your mind? I refer to the lower section of a tree trunk as just that, or root flare, basal flare or lower bore. A stump is what is left of a tree once it is removed.

Everything I have said above is merely speculation as it specifically pertains to this tree. I am still looking forward to pictures.

Dave

 

[jomoco]

All of you supposedly knowledgeable CA's shrugging off a massive Ganoderma fungal infection in the very heart of this giant, like it's no big deal, is a little too rich guys?

In my world armillaria and ganoderma are very bad news for any susceptable trees infected with these fungi.

Are you arborists or druids willing to sacrifice your firstborn's on the altar of your beliefs?

I've seen examples of vibrantly healthy agrifolias falling out of the ground due to severe armillaria infections literally eating their roots right out from under them. The smell is very distinctive.

And ganoderma does the same thing, but only in the lower heartwood rather than the roots themselves.

How many of you CA's really think that either of these fungal pathogens in oak trees is little cause for concern?

Me thinks you should have your certifications revoked?

jomoco

 

[jomoco]

Ok, here's a vid of the patient in question. The outer shots are ok, but the interior shots of the dome cavity inside totally sucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLvqGoPo7xE

If I get the go ahead to try and save this tree with UV light treatment therapy inside the cavity, I will take far greater efforts to record the process by video and post my results in this thread.

That cavity inside is closer to 4 feet across than 3 after a second look at it.

jomoco

 

[Boa07]

There are many aspects of your posting that appear to be deliberately provocative, certainly the language you choose and the way you treat others that are merely offering advice base just possibly on some valuable experience of their own…but since this can be the nature of forums so be it….others with a little fewer wood chips attached to their shoulders might be able to benefit from some of the responses.

I tried to post a response earlier but the darn AS software dumped the entire post before I submitted it so this one is written in word then pasted in.

Some very important points relating to wood decay fungi (IMO)

I’ll take Ganoderma as an example both because the statements made previously by Jomoco display a disturbing failure to either understand the complexity of the relations between this single fungal genus and its host trees, or a conscious choice to ignore it.

Ganoderma is also a fungal pathogen I have some little experience dealing with, having advised a great many clients with a variety of trees species infected with various Ganoderma species in various stages of decline, resistance and what might be termed co-habitation.

Of all the polypores, Ganoderma is the most difficult genus to separate out specific species, and looking at the spore measurement is the only reliable way of separating many of the very similar species.

Being absolutely certain of the ID is essential if useful diagnosis is to be made.

But lets assume that the ID is correct, and move to what the current research informs us about the potential of certain Ganoderma Spp …

Ganoderma adspernum (now known as G. australe) has been recorded as having the ability to penetrate intact reaction zones and therefore could develop potentially extensive decay even in trees with high vitality.

Ganoderma lipsiense appears incapable of growing beyond the columns of of previously dysfunctional wood tissues.

Ganoderma resinaceum site between the two other species seemingly able to penetrate the reaction zone in the wood of London plane (in experimental conditions) but also evidenced as being kept in check within trees of high vitality.

What should any Arborist that has concern for accuracy and perhaps some opinion on honesty take from such research?

Is it really too complicated for the poor simple tree owner to explain to them that yes their tree has an infection of wood decay fungi, called Ganoderma (lucidum) and that the relationship between the two is analogous to many chronic human infections.

Predisposing factors have an enormous impact on how far the fungi has advanced within the tree, age is important, past damage is important….current levels of health and vigour are just as important.
All tree species are exposed to the inoculum potential of wood decay fungi all the time, the extent of the resulting wood decay is best described by the decay triangle (which is again a simplification of the reality).

The inherent susceptibility of a species and genotype combine with a range of contributory factors just as they do in the study of patterns of lung cancer within the human population (I use lung cancer as a simplified analogy not because the pathology is similar)
Unlike us the tree will (given adequate levels of stored carbohydrate and photosynthetic capacity) continue to grow new cells away from the infection. It will continue to attempt to isolate the wood decay fungi and the process of wood tissue digestion.

Understanding the extent to which any particular tree is capable of achieving this demands a level of analysis that many either cannot or will not apply.

There are some very important aspects about assisting in the management of over mature trees that any sensible Arborist, CA or not should have in their minds….

Co-evolution of fungi and trees makes their relationship incredibly intricate and complex; many wood decay fungi have life cycles that express behavioral patterns that appear contradictory from a simplified…Wood decay fungi + Tree = Death of tree…perspective.
It is rare indeed to find an over mature tree without large stem hollows, or a wide variety of wood decay fungi colonizing portions of its structure. The balance between apoplast and symplast is very very different when compared to the trees we would generally encounter and this has an impact on every aspect of the functions within the tree system.

I hope some of what I have written may be of use to others reading the thread.

Any wood decay fungi even those that are typically perceived as mior players can play a part in the cumulative pressures on over mature trees that become too great for the system to sustain.

There are a great many options that can be offered the owners of such trees that do not involve the removal of the entire tree.

Large very old trees are an incredibly important resource to our environment, they are extraordinarily valuable and are crucial to supporting the fabric of the ecosystems that have developed around, on and in them.

The fact that they cannot move does not reduce the possible mitigation strategies for an identified risk of harm to starting a chainsaw up. Given the other threads I have read both here and elsewhere especially regarding installation of cabling I am a little surprised that the square seems so inescapable when it comes to considering the options for this tree

Jomoco you have written some deliberately inflammatory statements regarding your interpretation of the position others have towards wood decay fungi host trees and your predictions of future events….they do nothing to support your view they do you and your intellect a great disservice.

(BTW if you really think I should have my Certification revoked please by all means contact ISA my Cert No. is AU-0045A.)