Anti-Topping Laws

[rootzone-pro]

It never ceases to amaze me. Come to Arboristsite, argue on why its OK to top a tree. We got some champs here.
Hedge rows and wind breaks, trees planted for that purpose only, fine. The oak in the middle of the park, school yard, public place, back yard, font yard, etc, NO. To top a tree, because it is "repeat business" is pretty damn low. You are profiting by creating a public hazard, epic.
I suppose making people put a fence around their pool is taking away there rights as well then.

Actually forcing people to put a fence around there pool IS an intrusion on their rights. If they are dumb enough not to, their kids or their neighbors kids are at risk and they would be sued for negligence should something happen. That is the way it should work, not penalize everyone because there are a few dummies out there.
Now tree topping is not a dummy act. Very seldom is. There are reasons (EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY NOT AGREE) for topping trees. You are talking about Oaks, we never top Oaks. I am talking about evergreens that grow just a little bigger than Oaks. You want a 150' tree next to your house with a blown out top - fine. Just don't ask me and my customers to follow your reasoning. You forget the basics - the tree does not belong to you, the house does not belong to you. The "hazard" you say we are creating is proving to be just the opposite to those customers. We never advise topping but when we do it, we do it right and we maintain it. Yes, I come to Arboristsite and argue why a tree can be topped.

 

[arborjockey]

You guys can try and justify it all ya want, will never be enough. If you top, your a hack, end of story

And the story continues....
Ive been to IOWA. Stacked some cell towers for a friend of mine in 2005 . We put a big ring of cell antenas on a water tower up in Waterloo too. Spent some time around Christmas up there at the Holiday Inn. Met Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and went to the xmas concert. Little cold. One morning temp with wind chill was -50. I assume the trees grow slow and don't callus well. High winds snap poorly attached branches. After heavy pruning the young shoots that emerge are prone to the heavy winter. They have more water and havent formed rigid tissue yet. They get black spots of dead tissue. The next year the bark is down to the inner wood. The list go's on and on why not to top 90% of the trees there. The issue of "TOPPING" isnt a black and white though. You have to consider where you are and what the specie is. Even in your climate zone you can hard prune a young tree and manage it for years to come if the client see's fit to spend the $. I've seen an a white oak that was topped hard in the 60's thats fine. The shoots were selectively pruned and maintained for the years to come. You cant tell anything has ever happened other then the trunk to canopy ratio is a little off. no open wounds. (Its a huge tree and was done in a control.) You guys who dont think Topping is good your right but you need to define it. Consider the Arborist who prunes the same trees for 60 years. The trees they top look good to me. Bloom every year right on time. They grow just so that they reach the old ladies 2nd strory lanai. She walks out smells the flowers looks at the Mt's. Consider old timers who remember the Columbus day storm in the N.W. back in the 60's. Trees went down everywhere. Which ones? All the big ones. You have to remember earthy people dig the animals in the big trees. Its a fact that large trees harbor twice the animals small one do. By slowly crippling the tree through topping it, you extend its life time. Smaller trees can be established underneath to take over. Conifers have been cut in half and lived 80 more years safely. If you let the same tree just have grow it would have blown over in 20 and went through the house.


If its a long row of mature street trees, no you cant go through and make a bunch of hard ass cuts. Taking limbs back to the size of your thigh. It doesnt sound like it in my post but I scream at my boss over not topping trees.(he's telling me to do it and I say the tree cant take it). Everyone in the tropics thinks you can cut where ever because it will grow back. It does but like crap. Sometimes they die but its rare.

Here is what i deal with. These is are prized trees in kona and in the middle of down town. I take care of the owners estate. He had these guys come in from the other side of the island. Boy they showed me.

 

[ClimbMIT]

Good debate! Some very good points Arborjockey! I am not for laws especially when on private property. Although It does really suck to see a neighbor butcher a 40 year old live oak. I don't like to label people but if I was to define a hack this woul be my definition:

Hack- man or woman with a saw that cuts trees for profit: with no knowledge of tree biology, and/or regard for tree health whom cuts or " hacks " limbs off of trees without consideration of long term effects, possible insect infestation, rot, and other diseases caused from poor pruning techniques due to lack of knowledge or training.

 

[arborjockey]

I agree. Topping is topping but a hack has no reguard. Hard pruning a mature tree is going to kill it no doubt. It may be 25 to 50 years. When the homeowner says that sounds good lower the canopy and let it die. I lower the canopy. The idiot who said the tree is as important as me is completely lost. They don 't have ENERGY or a spirit. Here watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_JPcBwYGmo&feature=related

this is more my style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BO0Hpo_6Uc

 

[treeman75]

View attachment 226739View attachment 226740

 

[swyman]

View attachment 226739View attachment 226740

That's rude!

 

[arborjockey]

opcorn:



Downtown Kona. These Kiawe trees get hit every 2 years.

 

[TEXA$TREE]

Now I know what they mean by "tree hugger":hmm3grin2orange: Seriously though, they are just trees. They are not on the verge of extinction. If they were they would outlaw fireplaces. Topped trees are ugly and some but surely not all will die, but to talk about them like they have feelings! Too much.

According to my observation trees are in fact sharing space here and therefore do have "tree" feelings, IMO. For instance, when we park our cars repeatedly in the root zone, soon enough we will see the result in crown dieback yah?, as Arborists we recognize the signs and this we know. If the wind is blowing hard against the tree, it bends. These are unique tree feelings. Simple and true, and to exact the problem as a whole, when you say they are not extinct yes this is true and correct. But think of some inner city eco systems that rely on shrubs and grass, its sick. Yes in some cities healthy trees are becoming extinct. On occasion we have had to remove one or two trees from a six or seven group, usually some other tree will show signs of stress, this I believe is a weeping feeling. Either the sun is too bright or the wind is bending as it blows directly in and onto the wood, agreeing as professionals is a good start, bringing this united front to a political ring is a stepping stone we will need to move toward. One group can achieve a tremendous momentum

 

[treeman75]

opcorn:



Downtown Kona. These Kiawe trees get hit every 2 years.

Nice hat rack!

 

[swyman]

Watch the movie Avatar, it explains it all:msp_biggrin:

 

[rootzone-pro]

Word homey
Tree cutters, who know it is wrong, but still do it, IMO should be charged with fraud. They are scamming there clients by acting as a professional and lying about what will happen. To say they are "caring" for the tree when they are topping it..............
Like you and Del....and many others have said, it will only change with education, not only with the HO, but with the mis-informed tree cutters as well. The regs would be nice, would speed the education process up real quick.

It's a bit of a stretch to paint everyone with the same brush. You 'know' and others are committing fraud.? Every situation is different and unless you know what the details are you should keep your mouth shut about that case! Not everyone goes out and tops every tree. My points are -
A: Anti-topping laws without the possibilty of exceptions will be deemed unconstitutional, so why bother. I don't want envirogeeks running my world and trees don't vote.
B: Funny thing happened on the way to the Forum. While dropping a 170' Spruce into the river today, I had a discussion with the Forestry (you know USDA) guy about this discussion and we are in complete agreement on all aspects. Topping in general is bad, but there are a lot of instances where it is OK and sometimes even called for, and the trees can be maintained. So I feel good.
C. If a top blows out of a tree, you don't believe in cleaning up that top and allowing the tree to carry on living? You would rather take it out? This is topping, my friend. We ensure that only one top continues, rather than several, and that the top is on the side of the tree away from the house. Personally I think that is a heck of a lot smarter than most of the alternatives.
D: Some people have their heads stuffed so far up you know where that they would rather cry 'Bad Topper" or 'Whack Job' or all the other epithets used than actually practice tree husbandry. Look up those words, the meaning might surprise you.

 

[TEXA$TREE]

Trees do not vote

It's a bit of a stretch to paint everyone with the same brush. You 'know' and others are committing fraud.? Every situation is different and unless you know what the details are you should keep your mouth shut about that case! Not everyone goes out and tops every tree. My points are -
A: Anti-topping laws without the possibilty of exceptions will be deemed unconstitutional, so why bother. I don't want envirogeeks running my world and trees don't vote.
B: Funny thing happened on the way to the Forum. While dropping a 170' Spruce into the river today, I had a discussion with the Forestry (you know USDA) guy about this discussion and we are in complete agreement on all aspects. Topping in general is bad, but there are a lot of instances where it is OK and sometimes even called for, and the trees can be maintained. So I feel good.
C. If a top blows out of a tree, you don't believe in cleaning up that top and allowing the tree to carry on living? You would rather take it out? This is topping, my friend. We ensure that only one top continues, rather than several, and that the top is on the side of the tree away from the house. Personally I think that is a heck of a lot smarter than most of the alternatives.
D: Some people have their heads stuffed so far up you know where that they would rather cry 'Bad Topper" or 'Whack Job' or all the other epithets used than actually practice tree husbandry. Look up those words, the meaning might surprise you.

everytime we touch a tree, the potential is there for more.

 

[arborjockey]

According to my observation trees are in fact sharing space here and therefore do have "tree" feelings, IMO. For instance, when we park our cars repeatedly in the root zone, soon enough we will see the result in crown dieback yah?, as Arborists we recognize the signs and this we know. If the wind is blowing hard against the tree, it bends. These are unique tree feelings. Simple and true, and to exact the problem as a whole, when you say they are not extinct yes this is true and correct. But think of some inner city eco systems that rely on shrubs and grass, its sick. Yes in some cities healthy trees are becoming extinct. On occasion we have had to remove one or two trees from a six or seven group, usually some other tree will show signs of stress, this I believe is a weeping feeling. Either the sun is too bright or the wind is bending as it blows directly in and onto the wood, agreeing as professionals is a good start, bringing this united front to a political ring is a stepping stone we will need to move toward. One group can achieve a tremendous momentum

What are you talking about? I feel a movement coming on alright. A conscious subjective experience of emotion is not the same as a natural reaction to mechanical damage. :confused2:

 

[sgreanbeans]

It's a bit of a stretch to paint everyone with the same brush. You 'know' and others are committing fraud.? Every situation is different and unless you know what the details are you should keep your mouth shut about that case! Not everyone goes out and tops every tree. My points are -
A: Anti-topping laws without the possibilty of exceptions will be deemed unconstitutional, so why bother. I don't want envirogeeks running my world and trees don't vote.
B: Funny thing happened on the way to the Forum. While dropping a 170' Spruce into the river today, I had a discussion with the Forestry (you know USDA) guy about this discussion and we are in complete agreement on all aspects. Topping in general is bad, but there are a lot of instances where it is OK and sometimes even called for, and the trees can be maintained. So I feel good.
C. If a top blows out of a tree, you don't believe in cleaning up that top and allowing the tree to carry on living? You would rather take it out? This is topping, my friend. We ensure that only one top continues, rather than several, and that the top is on the side of the tree away from the house. Personally I think that is a heck of a lot smarter than most of the alternatives.
D: Some people have their heads stuffed so far up you know where that they would rather cry 'Bad Topper" or 'Whack Job' or all the other epithets used than actually practice tree husbandry. Look up those words, the meaning might surprise you.

Yeah thanks for the lesson,LOL As if it where needed. No matter how you want to justify it, its just an excuse, sure there are some situations that call for it, never said there wasn't. Again, I'm not talking about trees out in a forest or a tree that had the top blown out. To go to a perfectly healthy tree in the middle of someones front yard and top it, for the purpose of .....topping it, because it is growing, to say that there are circumstances that justify that!, well it is what it is, wrong. Now I will give you some homework, get me what you said in writing, where its is a proven Arboriculture practice, where there is any benefit to the tree. I would like to see it. Then go to Google Images, type tree topping, is that the work that you think is mislabeled! If it is, then we know you. If it isn't, then why are you talking. Ask around, I am the last person to keep my mouth shut on this. When getting paid to care for a tree, and then you top it, while claiming you are caring, that is fraud. I wont go into the law, I am not a lawyer, but mine did, and anyone who does it, is liable. Fact.

 

[tree md]

I really would not be in support of any legislation that tells a property owner what they can or cannot do with the vegetation growing on their own property. I wouldn't be against legislation that makes the person doing the topping explain what they are doing to the tree or even be educated to the facts before they go selling "tree care"...

That being said, I have been hitting a lot of neighborhoods lately and seeing a ####load of freshly topped trees... I just have to wonder, what kind of an idiot HO would believe that these trees look good or that this is good work?

 

[juststumps]

the last three posts here have been good ones. i personally am very much against being regulated and told what to do. i am just as likely to not do what im told just to feel like im not the governments gimp... however... there are certain laws and regulations i agree with...

let me try this kinda like i do with HOs...

trees are living organisms, just like you, i, the crops and bunny rabbits. now think of trees as energy generating systems. without energy me you the crops and the unny rabbits all die. Trees get energy from leaves and young shoots, the more green mass you cut off a tree the less energy it has. without energy the tree will die. YES some trees at the right time of year have enough energy reserves to recupirate, but the after effects structurally are abhoring.

some people say "oh its just a tree". to which i respond... that tree is a living organism! what makes that life less valuable than that of me you the crops and the bunny rabbits...


Bottom line is this. Its unhealthy, for the tree and the landscape.
We NEED tree laws. Just like we NEED certain other laws. If people are not going to be responsible for themselves and their work then they need to be regulated. We dont let baby rapers walk the streets making money at what they do best... why would we let tree rapers?

I just ate some living organisms this week . CHICKEN , BEEF , PORK , ONIONS , POTATOES , CARROTS , CELERY , BROCCOLI , and BEER . Haven't had BUNNY in a few years , but it was good . Tastes like trees .

 

[ClimbMIT]

I really would not be in support of any legislation that tells a property owner what they can or cannot do with the vegetation growing on their own property. I wouldn't be against legislation that makes the person doing the topping explain what they are doing to the tree or even be educated to the facts before they go selling "tree care"...

That being said, I have been hitting a lot of neighborhoods lately and seeing a ####load of freshly topped trees... I just have to wonder, what kind of an idiot HO would believe that these trees look good or that this is good work?

I agree, that sounds like working toward a solution. The pictures above look like plain stupidity. Maybe weekend warrior or the kid next door with a chainsaw? The only solution for me is stop by introduce myself. Explain to the HO how this will hurt their tree. Some or most won't care! Then I just move on. I Dont let them ruin my day If we get one HO every now and then that will take the time to listen and do it right. Then we are one more step closer to our goal. It's easy to get upset and loose your cool when you care about trees.I know most of us do care. If i decide to not let my emotions take control I can leave their feeling good. I planted a seed and that's a good start. Just my thoughts

 

[juststumps]

I really would not be in support of any legislation that tells a property owner what they can or cannot do with the vegetation growing on their own property. I wouldn't be against legislation that makes the person doing the topping explain what they are doing to the tree or even be educated to the facts before they go selling "tree care"...

That being said, I have been hitting a lot of neighborhoods lately and seeing a ####load of freshly topped trees... I just have to wonder, what kind of an idiot HO would believe that these trees look good or that this is good work?

The first 3 pics ? Was the tree topped ? Or was it dead wooded back to a green shoot ????

By the looks of the big stubs , . Looks to me , it was cut back to a live sucker .

Last pic looks like a POLLARD , just saying.

 

[banshee67]

there should be laws against cutting down trees period
at least with topping they have a fighting chance to survive a bit longer and live a more fulfilling life
when you do a full removal, you permanently remove one of god's creations from this earth, think about that next time you go to sink the teeth of one of your death machines into a beautiful living being.

 

[sgreanbeans]

I really would not be in support of any legislation that tells a property owner what they can or cannot do with the vegetation growing on their own property. I wouldn't be against legislation that makes the person doing the topping explain what they are doing to the tree or even be educated to the facts before they go selling "tree care"...

That being said, I have been hitting a lot of neighborhoods lately and seeing a ####load of freshly topped trees... I just have to wonder, what kind of an idiot HO would believe that these trees look good or that this is good work?

Amen Larry, you can avoid the HO altogether by restricting the operator, make them sign the Code of Ethics when he get his business license, he tops, he looses his license, simple. It boggles me too, why you would want something like that in your yard.

Those trees were all topped. A tree that has been topped, then the epis cleared all the time is not pollarding, it is bad tree work. I just seen a local hacks website, he has "certified" on his add, certified in what? But then also has "Professional Topping" and "Expert Tree Care" in the same add, cracks me up! Then has a pic of him in a bucket, no PPE, has like a 066 or bigger with like a 4' bar, cutting a 12" spar! AWESOME!