Ban on wood-fired boilers-Its started.
- Thread starter Rspike
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The EPA can go blow a goat as far as I am concerned. I might also point out that such rules would only apply to new manufacture and with out enforcement would not amount to anything.
Woodboilers are already inside buildings and the EPA isnt doing anything about it.
There are wood stoves in garages too and is not allowed buy code .......... The EPA is not going to go after 50 OWB. My point is its a waist of time to do so. Most are in a barn/garage and such so you dont have to stand out in the cold to reload / clean and maintain. Thats what i was going to do before i got educated about outdoor wood boilers and went with a higher efficient stove.bwalker said:
In my area almost everyone has a sauna, camp and or a garage with a woodstove. I dont think i have ever even seen a EPA stove!
I dont know what its like where you live, but it isnt going to happen here. One township did try to ban them and it was shot down. In another case a city tried to shut a guy down with a boiler and he simply moved it into his poll barn and there was nothing they could do.
I dont know what its like where you live, but it isnt going to happen here. One township did try to ban them and it was shot down. In another case a city tried to shut a guy down with a boiler and he simply moved it into his poll barn and there was nothing they could do.
thats all depends on where you live as zoning is a twp and city issue, not a national one. It is not against code to have a wood stove in your garage in my twp.
Yeah , O.K. Ben.bwalker said:
NFPA 211
Chapter 9 Solid Fuel- Burning Appliances
9-2.3
Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any location where gasoline or any other flamable vapors or gasses are likely present
9-2.4
Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any residential garage
windthrown
361 Junkie
Wood ban in Silicon Valley
FYI: For a long time now there has been a ban on installing wood burning fireplaces of *all* types in homes built in the Silicon Valley (SF Bay Area). The ban only applies to newer homes built. Old homes with existing fireplaces are exempt, and they do not limit any existing fireplaces from being used there (or restrict remodeling or rebuilding an existing fireplace). Most bans grandfather existing units and restrict new stuff from being installed.
FYI: For a long time now there has been a ban on installing wood burning fireplaces of *all* types in homes built in the Silicon Valley (SF Bay Area). The ban only applies to newer homes built. Old homes with existing fireplaces are exempt, and they do not limit any existing fireplaces from being used there (or restrict remodeling or rebuilding an existing fireplace). Most bans grandfather existing units and restrict new stuff from being installed.
Schultzz
ArboristSite Operative
There are wood burning furnaces which have ceramic heat absorbers and secondary burn chambers which boast of 80% efficiency. Try a search and see what you find.
Here are some wood burning numbers for to think about:
1980 1700 sf house, 2x6 walls, well insulated and I have been burning wood since the house was build. first wood burning appliance was a forced hot air system made by Newmac and burned about 6-7 cords of wood for about 12 years. Then switched to coal and used about 4 tons per year for 4 years. Then stopped using wood or coal to heat with because it was causing too many problems like indoor air quality, dirt, bugs, etc.. 3 years ago I bought an outdoor wood boiler and for the past 3 years have burnt on the average 6 cords of hardwood and 1 1/2 cords of dried pine slab wood from a local sawmill.
Not only am I heating my house but also my domestic hot water with this new system. so with just a slight increase of firewood usage from the old systems I can turn the propane gas off. This is equal to about $3,000.00 a year that the oil company's don't get.:hmm3grin2orange:
When it comes to outdoor air quality, who cares. I have 117 acres of land and my nearest neighbor is half a mile away.
1980 1700 sf house, 2x6 walls, well insulated and I have been burning wood since the house was build. first wood burning appliance was a forced hot air system made by Newmac and burned about 6-7 cords of wood for about 12 years. Then switched to coal and used about 4 tons per year for 4 years. Then stopped using wood or coal to heat with because it was causing too many problems like indoor air quality, dirt, bugs, etc.. 3 years ago I bought an outdoor wood boiler and for the past 3 years have burnt on the average 6 cords of hardwood and 1 1/2 cords of dried pine slab wood from a local sawmill.
Not only am I heating my house but also my domestic hot water with this new system. so with just a slight increase of firewood usage from the old systems I can turn the propane gas off. This is equal to about $3,000.00 a year that the oil company's don't get.:hmm3grin2orange:
When it comes to outdoor air quality, who cares. I have 117 acres of land and my nearest neighbor is half a mile away.
Who cares about air quality, you must be kidding!
My and your kids ,thats who!
My and your kids ,thats who!
Butch(OH)
Addicted to ArboristSite
Good gawd Rspike, I hadda look up NFPA to even know what it is. And just when I had you pegged as a law abiding EPA tree hugger type I find out your actually one of us lawless freedom crusaders after all.
Or have you quit using your EPA regulated garage woodstove since you discovered NFPA law number 9 dash whatever you quoted??:hmm3grin2orange:
What you don't seem to understand is that quite a few are like BWalker (count me in) and could give a rats rear what the EPA, NFPA, or even the NTPA, NFO, NAFTA, or even STP corporation thinks of our stoves or where we put them. AND where we are lucky enough to live the socialists have not completely taken over our local government and we are still free to choose the course of our lives. Just for giggles I took a look at the stoves at a local dealer, Tractor Supply Corp and could not find a stove with the secondary burn chambers that I believe you say are now required everywhere so how are they selling them? I will admit that their stove stocks are a bit low, maybe 20 in the store. As a matter of fact they still have 1800s style boxwood stoves for sale.
SOooo,,, it is BS that the new style regulated stoves are mandated for indoor use everywhere otherwise how are they still being sold openly here?
Or have you quit using your EPA regulated garage woodstove since you discovered NFPA law number 9 dash whatever you quoted??:hmm3grin2orange:
What you don't seem to understand is that quite a few are like BWalker (count me in) and could give a rats rear what the EPA, NFPA, or even the NTPA, NFO, NAFTA, or even STP corporation thinks of our stoves or where we put them. AND where we are lucky enough to live the socialists have not completely taken over our local government and we are still free to choose the course of our lives. Just for giggles I took a look at the stoves at a local dealer, Tractor Supply Corp and could not find a stove with the secondary burn chambers that I believe you say are now required everywhere so how are they selling them? I will admit that their stove stocks are a bit low, maybe 20 in the store. As a matter of fact they still have 1800s style boxwood stoves for sale.
SOooo,,, it is BS that the new style regulated stoves are mandated for indoor use everywhere otherwise how are they still being sold openly here?
Butch(OH)
Addicted to ArboristSite
JeffHK454 said:
Oh geez do we have to go here??
So does the concern for air quality end with cursing other's choices in wood stoves or does it include your entire life? Do you eat raw food when ever possible, How do you like your steaks? Like do you own a hybrid car and only drive it when absolutely needed? Do you drive it only when it is the only possible mode of transportation? OR are you one of us polluters who drive ordinary cars and go to McDs for supper now and then? What about that computer you are reading this on? isn't it being powered by fossil fuel or are you peddling a generator? Do I need ask more?
As I have said many times,
I will respect any lover of the environment as better than me when I meet one who takes NOTHING from it unnecessarily,,
The others are hypocrites who only think they are better than me.
I'm' off my box, How about you?
I better shut up or I'm going to get the ax on here, oh well I guess.
I think ever one that has an outdoor wood stove must be dumb and cant see the somke.
I know I must go though about 300,000,000,000,000 cords a day though my wood stove.
What the Hell ever dude, EPA ROCKS.
lol
I know I must go though about 300,000,000,000,000 cords a day though my wood stove.
What the Hell ever dude, EPA ROCKS.
lol
Rspike said:
I dont want to keep feeding the fire but, real life and the testing area is diff.
Call Central boiler and talk to david, he will tell you diff.
1-800-248-4681
Thats funny Im on the phone right now soon finding out what he has to say.
MS-310 dosent know about no freaking 80 grams per hour,
Last edited:
That does it...I am going to go burn some tires and rail ties just tp pizz RSpike off.
How many grams per hour would burning tires and ties generate?:hmm3grin2orange:
How many grams per hour would burning tires and ties generate?:hmm3grin2orange:
NFPA? Who the heck is that?
Edit, just did a little digging. The NFPA isnt even a governmental agency so therefore their regulations are of no concern to me.
Butch(OH)
Addicted to ArboristSite
bwalker said:
I threw a 205R78-14 in mine tonite, grabbed a chair and some corn hopen the smoke would blow his way
opcorn: and guess what? no smoke. Tomorrow he is getting 235r70-16" or a 10.00-20 if I can get it in the door
windthrown
361 Junkie
OWB burners...
Yah, I expect to burn 3 trillion cords of wood here this year in our CB OWB, it is that inefficient. But, being as we get all the free firewood that anyone could burn in a lifetime (yes, literally tons of firewood here, readilly available for the cutting if you know the land owners or get permission from the timber company reps to cut any and all the slash that you want), efficiency is just not an issue. Actually we get more wood from windthrow and dead snags than we can possibly burn here, and I just wind up burning a lot of wood in slash piles. We have to by law here... otherwise it is considered a hazard and we are liable. I have burned maybe 100 cords of slash wood and stumps in the past 2 years here? Maybe more. Some of these piles have been as big as a 2 car garage. Many of the commercial timber slash piles near here are as big as a house. We have one huge slash pile left on this property that I cannot get to. It has 2-3 truckloads of red cedar that the previous owner felled and did not truck out for some reason (roads may have mudded out). Now it is half rotted and unsellable... but it is there, and it has to be delt with. I need to clear the road into it though after 10 years of re-growth of alders and blackberries. Anyone out there want free wood in exchange for help?
As for air quality, we have 105 acres here and smoke is another non-issue. Nearest neighbor is a quarter of a mile away and te smoke does not drift in that direction. Even if it smoked as much as the disinformational pages posted back east by the anti-OWB people, it would be a non-issue. Actually my girlfriend likes the wood smoke smell after I stroke the boiler. And again, we just burn slash anyway, by LAW, and so it all winds up in the atmosphere for your kiddies to breathe. If you do not like that, please go up against the timber laws and lobby here in Oregon and file a complaint.
Also, I have looked at a lot of energy systems here for this house. Before we bought the CB OWB boiler I looked at and designed a stream-flow pelton wheel generator system. The ROI was about 20 years. It was also very complicated with inverters and such, and the supply is only seasonal. Right now the temps are cold and the stream flows near zero. I also looked at wind, as our neighbor has a wind farm to augment his off-grid diesel generating system. The guy that sold them to him said not to bother, as the payback was never going to happen and he only recommends them for off-grid applications.
So then we looked at wood burners. My first thought was to put in a Russian fireplace that I saw at a friend's house down by Crater Lake. But they are massive structures, and would require a major remodel of the house here. I like the idea of them, and the only issue with them seems to be the amount of creosote that builds up. They are very efficient though, ad little smoke and/or heat leaves the chimney. We also looked at wood stoves. This is a ranch house with no basement. A radiant free-standing wood stove will not heat this house effectively. There is no way to channel the heat from the stove to teh rest of the house. We would need several stoves, or some distribution ducting system. Not an option. I saw the Greenwood boiler system which is very efficient, but they are inside the home units. They do not build an OWB that I am aware of. We do not have the space to put that type of system in the house here without a major remdel. So... we went looking some more.
This house had an existing solar hot water system and an electric heated hydronic radiant floor heating system. We started looking at the Woodmaster and other types of OWBs. Wood fired boilers looked like a great idea, as we have an unlimited supply of firewood here. I looked at a lot of OWBs and the various issues, etc. So we called the CB rep here and went up and looked at the system in use, and costs, etc. I was amazed at several things. One is that they smoke very little, compared to all the hype against them. Another was the size of logs that you can toss into an OWB. Large logs. Long logs. Fewer cuts. Less work. No wood splitting. Less labor. Also all the mess, smoke and debris remains outside along with the fire hazard. I was sold on them, right then and there.
We bought the CB unit last fall. If I had it to do all over again, I would still buy the CB unit. It cost all of $6k for the boiler, and another $1k for parts and a slab and a backhoe to install it. Maybe another $1k in odd labor and gas and the cost of chainsaws to cut wood depreciated over the life of the boiler and the cost ot run the pumps and electronics. In the end, that is a whopping $8k. I do not know how you can pay $25 grand for a boiler system. Our system will pay for itself in less than 6 years, which is a really good return. In the northeast and midwest they can pay for themselves in as little as 3 years. We also save 2.5 MWhr per month of electricity, and all the coal or hydro or NG to produce the electricity and cost and energy losses to deliver it. The bottom line is that we save over $200 a month burning what we would have to burn here in slash anyway, the system is simple and easy and reliable. We can also heat the house as much as we want to. We can run around the house naked in 76 degree heat when it is dumping snow outside in February.... while I run a load of laundry and the dishwahser and still have hot water for a steaming hot shower.... all while paying the local utility company NOTHING for it all.
Yah... :deadhorse: :hmm3grin2orange:
Yah, I expect to burn 3 trillion cords of wood here this year in our CB OWB, it is that inefficient. But, being as we get all the free firewood that anyone could burn in a lifetime (yes, literally tons of firewood here, readilly available for the cutting if you know the land owners or get permission from the timber company reps to cut any and all the slash that you want), efficiency is just not an issue. Actually we get more wood from windthrow and dead snags than we can possibly burn here, and I just wind up burning a lot of wood in slash piles. We have to by law here... otherwise it is considered a hazard and we are liable. I have burned maybe 100 cords of slash wood and stumps in the past 2 years here? Maybe more. Some of these piles have been as big as a 2 car garage. Many of the commercial timber slash piles near here are as big as a house. We have one huge slash pile left on this property that I cannot get to. It has 2-3 truckloads of red cedar that the previous owner felled and did not truck out for some reason (roads may have mudded out). Now it is half rotted and unsellable... but it is there, and it has to be delt with. I need to clear the road into it though after 10 years of re-growth of alders and blackberries. Anyone out there want free wood in exchange for help?
As for air quality, we have 105 acres here and smoke is another non-issue. Nearest neighbor is a quarter of a mile away and te smoke does not drift in that direction. Even if it smoked as much as the disinformational pages posted back east by the anti-OWB people, it would be a non-issue. Actually my girlfriend likes the wood smoke smell after I stroke the boiler. And again, we just burn slash anyway, by LAW, and so it all winds up in the atmosphere for your kiddies to breathe. If you do not like that, please go up against the timber laws and lobby here in Oregon and file a complaint.
Also, I have looked at a lot of energy systems here for this house. Before we bought the CB OWB boiler I looked at and designed a stream-flow pelton wheel generator system. The ROI was about 20 years. It was also very complicated with inverters and such, and the supply is only seasonal. Right now the temps are cold and the stream flows near zero. I also looked at wind, as our neighbor has a wind farm to augment his off-grid diesel generating system. The guy that sold them to him said not to bother, as the payback was never going to happen and he only recommends them for off-grid applications.
So then we looked at wood burners. My first thought was to put in a Russian fireplace that I saw at a friend's house down by Crater Lake. But they are massive structures, and would require a major remodel of the house here. I like the idea of them, and the only issue with them seems to be the amount of creosote that builds up. They are very efficient though, ad little smoke and/or heat leaves the chimney. We also looked at wood stoves. This is a ranch house with no basement. A radiant free-standing wood stove will not heat this house effectively. There is no way to channel the heat from the stove to teh rest of the house. We would need several stoves, or some distribution ducting system. Not an option. I saw the Greenwood boiler system which is very efficient, but they are inside the home units. They do not build an OWB that I am aware of. We do not have the space to put that type of system in the house here without a major remdel. So... we went looking some more.
This house had an existing solar hot water system and an electric heated hydronic radiant floor heating system. We started looking at the Woodmaster and other types of OWBs. Wood fired boilers looked like a great idea, as we have an unlimited supply of firewood here. I looked at a lot of OWBs and the various issues, etc. So we called the CB rep here and went up and looked at the system in use, and costs, etc. I was amazed at several things. One is that they smoke very little, compared to all the hype against them. Another was the size of logs that you can toss into an OWB. Large logs. Long logs. Fewer cuts. Less work. No wood splitting. Less labor. Also all the mess, smoke and debris remains outside along with the fire hazard. I was sold on them, right then and there.
We bought the CB unit last fall. If I had it to do all over again, I would still buy the CB unit. It cost all of $6k for the boiler, and another $1k for parts and a slab and a backhoe to install it. Maybe another $1k in odd labor and gas and the cost of chainsaws to cut wood depreciated over the life of the boiler and the cost ot run the pumps and electronics. In the end, that is a whopping $8k. I do not know how you can pay $25 grand for a boiler system. Our system will pay for itself in less than 6 years, which is a really good return. In the northeast and midwest they can pay for themselves in as little as 3 years. We also save 2.5 MWhr per month of electricity, and all the coal or hydro or NG to produce the electricity and cost and energy losses to deliver it. The bottom line is that we save over $200 a month burning what we would have to burn here in slash anyway, the system is simple and easy and reliable. We can also heat the house as much as we want to. We can run around the house naked in 76 degree heat when it is dumping snow outside in February.... while I run a load of laundry and the dishwahser and still have hot water for a steaming hot shower.... all while paying the local utility company NOTHING for it all.
Yah... :deadhorse: :hmm3grin2orange:
windthrown
361 Junkie
Burning RR ties and tires...
Hey, there is a thought. We have this huge pile of RR ties here from an old fence system that we tore out. Maybe 50 of them. And lots of tires. They float down the creek here in the rainy season and I cannot take them to the local dump. I have maybe 10 or so. They would make a huge roiling stinking smokey mess if I torched them off in a slash pile... maybe I can toss them into the old trailer here for a grand stinkey smokey messy burn adding plastic and lead and paint to the mix.
Heh heh heh...
:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
Hey, there is a thought. We have this huge pile of RR ties here from an old fence system that we tore out. Maybe 50 of them. And lots of tires. They float down the creek here in the rainy season and I cannot take them to the local dump. I have maybe 10 or so. They would make a huge roiling stinking smokey mess if I torched them off in a slash pile... maybe I can toss them into the old trailer here for a grand stinkey smokey messy burn adding plastic and lead and paint to the mix.
Heh heh heh...
:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
Absolutely some of the stupids things Ive ever seen on this site where typed in this thread! You think I'm a tree hugger because I think a "oh well , try and catch me" attitude is stupid!
You can trace everything that's had the crap regulated out of it back to the people that said "they will never catch me" or "screw them it's always been like this"
I don't know If WFBs are bad or good I just read whats presented, Rspike has supplied a bunch of publicly available info about there short comings with no rebuttals other than...."I don't care about the pollution cause it blows away" .
Please WFB people, change my mind.
JH
You can trace everything that's had the crap regulated out of it back to the people that said "they will never catch me" or "screw them it's always been like this"
I don't know If WFBs are bad or good I just read whats presented, Rspike has supplied a bunch of publicly available info about there short comings with no rebuttals other than...."I don't care about the pollution cause it blows away"
.Please WFB people, change my mind.
JH
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