Ban on wood-fired boilers-Its started.

[RaisedByWolves]

JUst found some more INFO>>>>>Over the period from 1980-1998, indoor wood burning was responsible for 1,541,800 fires; $1.024 billion dollars in property loss; and 3,275 deaths (The (NFPA) National Fire Protection Association Fire Analysis and Research, U.S. Home heating Fire Patterns, June 2001.

3275 deaths, its worth it to me to have it out side.

Are these figures world wide? Can you post a link to the site where you obtained them?


The only figures I could find (oddly covering the exact same time frame) Were not only much lower but included every type of heating other than A conventional furnace or water heater. ie Kero, electric space heaters, portable propane heaters, etc.

 

[windthrown]

The UP... that's cold...

I burn between 8-12 cords of wood per year. My house was is new construction and is about 2200sq feet with lots of windows and a walk out basement.
I am also in the UP Of Mi where we have real winter, not like Ohio, or Illinois.
Somebody living in lower MI, Ohio, Illinois or Indiana is going to use the same amount of wood as I do.
I paid $95 per cord this year, but have paid %45 per cprd three years ago. There has been a shortage of pulp around here for the last few years so prices are higher than normal.
10 cords X $95 = $950. Not too bad considering I was using about $4-600 a month in propane prior to owning my boiler.

My mom was born in Ishpeming, MI (UP). My grandfather was a dentist there stating about 100 years ago. They became snowbirds and moved to Florida in the 1920s. Too cold in winter on the UP. 8-12 cords sounds about right for that kind of place. A winter there is very real and very cold. So much colder compared to what we get here.

We have a newer house with about 2200 sq ft here and a lot of glass too, and we burn from 3 to 5 full cords a year of medium density stuff, mostly Doug fir and red alder. People with drafty old poorly insulated houses and not so great fireplaces around here burn 6-8 cords. $95 for a cord of firewood is still cheap compared to what they get for them here. $150 is common in Oregon for Madrone or oak. $300 in California (for Madrone). We get our wood for free here... pleanty of windthrow and snags.

 

[logbutcher]

Big Bucks to Heat in the U.P. !

I burn between 8-12 cords of wood per year. My house was is new construction and is about 2200sq feet with lots of windows and a walk out basement.
I am also in the UP Of Mi where we have real winter, not like Ohio, or Illinois.
Somebody living in lower MI, Ohio, Illinois or Indiana is going to use the same amount of wood as I do.
I paid $95 per cord this year, but have paid %45 per cprd three years ago.
10 cords X $95 = $950. Not too bad considering I was using about $4-600 a month in propane prior to owning my boiler.

For that size home that's a lot of wood. Hope it's really those silly "face cords" !!! What stove(s) or wood boiler you got ? House insulated well and tight ? Downeast here, same latitude, even an old farmhouse with little or no insulation and the same size as yours will use 8-10 cords/year of mixed hardwoods. Ours is about 1600 ft², built ourselves damn tight and insulated, 2 EPA stoves ( Jotul Oslo non-cat, and a VC Encore cat) heating 100%, 24/7 takes 3-4 cords/year for heat only.
The water heater is a propane tankless on-demand Rinnai using about $25/month at winter peak along with the cook stove and dryer.
Firewood is harvested each winter from our woodlot for the following winter. $95/cord delivered is a good deal even for log lengths iof they're good hardwood.
I'll use some softwood, spruce and fir, only for shoulder season quick fires. Also use the softs for the workshop stove (Tempwood steel toploader), and for the hot tub (Snorkel stove ). Too many stoves, huh ?

 

[bwalker]

My mom was born in Ishpeming, MI (UP). My grandfather was a dentist there stating about 100 years ago. They became snowbirds and moved to Florida in the 1920s. Too cold in winter on the UP. 8-12 cords sounds about right for that kind of place. A winter there is very real and very cold. So much colder compared to what we get here.

Small world. Ish is only 5 miles away from where I live.

 

[bwalker]

Logbutcher, Maine doesnt get the snow and wind like we do. And depending on where your at in Maine it doesnt get as cold either.
I also burn all green wood and in the early part of the fall burn junk wood like Aspen, white pine, hemlock, white birch, cedar etc.
I also dont have to worry about tending 2 stoves, bugs/bark in the house, cleaning chimneys, smoke/smell in the house and, increased insurance/fire risk.

 

[MS-310]

Are these figures world wide? Can you post a link to the site where you obtained them?


The only figures I could find (oddly covering the exact same time frame) Were not only much lower but included every type of heating other than A conventional furnace or water heater. ie Kero, electric space heaters, portable propane heaters, etc.

Got this from a e-mail from The (NFPA) National Fire Protection Association Fire Analysis and Research, U.S. Home heating Fire Patterns, June 2001).
""""""indoor wood burning was responsible for 1,541,800 fires; $1.024 billion dollars in property loss; and 3,275 deaths""""""

That I would guess is ONLY indoor wood burning.

RBW...... here I havent looked on the site yet but here you go
www.nfpa.org

 

[Rspike]

I burn between 8-12 cords of wood per year. My house was is new construction and is about 2200sq feet with lots of windows and a walk out basement.
I am also in the UP Of Mi where we have real winter, not like Ohio, or Illinois.
Somebody living in lower MI, Ohio, Illinois or Indiana is going to use the same amount of wood as I do.
I paid $95 per cord this year, but have paid %45 per cprd three years ago. There has been a shortage of pulp around here for the last few years so prices are higher than normal.
10 cords X $95 = $950. Not too bad considering I was using about $4-600 a month in propane prior to owning my boiler.

THATS ODD , Something dont add up, MS-310 lives in SAME State of Michigan as you with no insulation what so ever in his house and he only burns 3 cords of wood a year! Hum ...........

Smoke My @ss

They dont smoke that much only when they start up. Some people just dont under stand the idea. You are going to us about 4 to 6 cords of wood, it my be less or more but avg. is 4 to 6 cords. Mine burns about 3 cords of wood a year, my house is old but only 1800 sqft. (and thats all im heating). any more ??????
Jack

 

[Rspike]

Got this from a e-mail from The (NFPA) National Fire Protection Association Fire Analysis and Research, U.S. Home heating Fire Patterns, June 2001).
""""""indoor wood burning was responsible for 1,541,800 fires; $1.024 billion dollars in property loss; and 3,275 deaths""""""

That I would guess is ONLY indoor wood burning.

RBW...... here I havent looked on the site yet but here you go
www.nfpa.org

I see your worried about a fire in your home , thats good you beat the odds. It must be ruff to ride your bicycle to work becasue the odds of a car crash and death is way higher than a house burning down because of a wood stove. I know you wouldnt put YOUR family in a car/truck with the odd of death of a car crash.

People keep asking for the proof of numbers on OWBs than say its false. But with the odds you are showing of indoor fires ....... we need to see a break down of the numbers. fireplace , pot belly stove , 55 gallon drum stove , 1932 stove , improper installs , non UL listed stoves , EPA stoves . fire by coal bucket , fire by bad install or improper install , camp stove . The OVER ALL #'s are a joke , you need a break down or it dont mean a whole lot to us.

 

[bwalker]

THATS ODD , Something dont add up, MS-310 lives in SAME State of Michigan as you with no insulation what so ever in his house and he only burns 3 cords of wood a year! Hum ...........

There is a huge differance between southern MI and the UP where I live.

 

[bwalker]

RS, I actually just looked at my records for the last three years and I used between 7 and 10 cords. Some of this was green soft wood early in the season though. I would think that if I used only seasoned oak and maple and kept my house at 70 I could get my consumption down to 5-7. Why bother, though? Wood is cheep.
Maybe I could burn only 3 cords with a indoor stove, but then I would have to deal with the stink, bugs, and mess in my house. Not to mention the higher insurance, increased risk of fire and the fact I would have to split and haul wood into my house. Its easier haveing a log truck plop a load infront of my boiler, cut it, then through it in unplit/seasoned.

 

[logbutcher]

What a Country! Do as You Damn Please

RS, .. I used between 7 and 10 cords. Some of this was green soft wood early in the season though. I would think that if I used only seasoned oak and maple and kept my house at 70 I could get my consumption down to 5-7. Why bother, though? Wood is cheep.
Maybe I could burn only 3 cords with a indoor stove, but then I would have to deal with the stink, bugs, and mess in my house. Not to mention the higher insurance, increased risk of fire and the fact I would have to split and haul wood into my house.

Never thot of it that way: NO bugs, NO stink, NO mess. Otherwise SWMBO (shewhomustbe obeyed) would yell at me :biggrinbounce2: .
Hauling 3-4 times the wood I use would cripple me, since I go from stump to stove in our woodlot. It takes some thinking and planning to get the wood around: indoor woodshed for a 1/3 cord or so for the snow that we don't have here :hmm3grin2orange: , methods to keep the house clean, and bring the wood in for each day.
And Ben, if it's so arctic in the UP why would anyone want to load a stove outdoors ? What kind on long underwear do you have to wear ? We had those winter outfits during training in Ft Drum....can't even pee without a serious plan. Then it freezes 1/2 way down:hmm3grin2orange:
JMHO. Then what do you do when the power goes out ? When we have our NO snow storms, and the lines go down, those buggy, stinky, messy indoor stoves plug away. We can even cavort (don't know what that means, it sounds good) nude :yoyo: . We cook on 'em. Can you cook on that OWB ?
Mr. Righteous dismissed here.umpkin2:
BUT: get the bureaucrats off us...seriously. Burn the way you want.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Got this from a e-mail from The (NFPA) National Fire Protection Association Fire Analysis and Research, U.S. Home heating Fire Patterns, June 2001).
""""""indoor wood burning was responsible for 1,541,800 fires; $1.024 billion dollars in property loss; and 3,275 deaths""""""

That I would guess is ONLY indoor wood burning.

RBW...... here I havent looked on the site yet but here you go
www.nfpa.org

Well, I looked on the site you provided and could not come up with numbers anywhere near what you claimed.


Who sent you the email? CB, as stated in the other thread?


If you would have done the slightest amount of research on your own you would have found that there are on average 53,000 fires per year in homes in which heating devices were the cause,(this included apartments and trailers) over the span that you have mentioned.

http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?...URL=Research & Reports/Fire statistics/Causes

These averages were from ALL typs of heating equipment, not just wood burning sources. (which includes open fireplaces)

 

[bwalker]

Logbutcher, Loading my boiler once a day is not a issue for me. I usually have to snowblow most mornings anyway.
I cut and hauled all my own wood for the first year i owned the boiler, till I figured that it cost me more for "free" wood than it would to have it delivered to my boiler.
If the power goes out I do the same thing I did when I used propane. Fire up the Honda generator.

 

[hockeypuck]

I was reading a lot of posts and threads at the Mother Earth Forum the last few days ........... reading from all the outdoor wood boiler owners that most of them are burning 9-12 cords of wood a year in there OWB! Wow , thats a lot of wood. Some OWB users even burning 16-20 cords of wood a year.

As most mention thats not only there heating there house there also heating there hot water so its a big savings. "big savings"? My NG hot water heater cost me $30. a month and thats with the $11. user charge to have it and all the b.s. taxes and fees at about $7.-$9. put the NG its self at $10. Still to the fact it still $30. cost.($360. a year) but the use of 9-12 cords of wood cant cover the cost of hot water.
A lot of wood users wood is free but at buying wood at $150.oo a cord is still only 2.2 cords of wood. so that would be for me at 3.75 cords home heating (indoor EPA wood stove) + 2.2 cords water heating = 6 total cords . Where is the other 3-6 cords of wood the (9-12 cords of year users) and the 10-14 cords extra (of wood users of 16-20 cords) wood going ?

At dollars per cord of $150. a cord thats an extra $450.00-$900.00 & $1,500.00-$2,100.00 extra wood used a year! I could buy me a brand new top of the line wood stove every year and still save money from natural gas.

Rspike,

You have been throwing around alot of figures and you are dead wrong on the 9 cords for hot water. That is assine. As far as Elliot Spitzers hack job on OWB last year, that was nothing more than easy pickings for an election year. What better way to get the green party fired up for you than picking on a few outdoor wood boiler users. Those figures were largely based on old data from old designs. I am not saying that my Woodmaster is burning at 70 percent efficiency like my Vermont Castings Reliant, but I am willing to sacrifice a few cord of wood for domestic hot water, the lack of nose bleeds by my children from the wood stove, and the ability to burn junk wood outdoors. Keep stiring the pot -Rspike, but I am done reading this thread, because we will have to agree to disagree. Would I love the manufacturers to produce a 80 percent efficient outdoor wood boiler, of course. But until they produce one at a reasonable price, I will keep the smoke house.

I believe someone once said, "Smoke'em if you got 'em boys!"

Puck

 

[Rspike]

Rspike,

You have been throwing around alot of figures and you are dead wrong on the 9 cords for hot water. That is assine. As far as Elliot Spitzers hack job on OWB last year, that was nothing more than easy pickings for an election year. What better way to get the green party fired up for you than picking on a few outdoor wood boiler users. Those figures were largely based on old data from old designs. I am not saying that my Woodmaster is burning at 70 percent efficiency like my Vermont Castings Reliant, but I am willing to sacrifice a few cord of wood for domestic hot water, the lack of nose bleeds by my children from the wood stove, and the ability to burn junk wood outdoors. Keep stiring the pot -Rspike, but I am done reading this thread, because we will have to agree to disagree. Would I love the manufacturers to produce a 80 percent efficient outdoor wood boiler, of course. But until they produce one at a reasonable price, I will keep the smoke house.

I believe someone once said, "Smoke'em if you got 'em boys!"

Puck

If you are done with the thread ........ I have no problem with that. I have posted a lot of # and threads , tests. No proof at all from any OWB owners. Also i think you need to reread the whole thread and read what is posted and not what you want to hear ......... NOBODY said / posted anything about an OWB needing 9 cords of wood to heat hot water. The biggest come back i see is ........"I dont mind cutting/buying all the extra wood" or "let them smoke" Thats the difference between an owner of an OWB and a indoor modern stove user . 99% of the time the modern wood stove user did his homework and wanted the best bang for the buck and use less wood , less work and higher efficiency. Most OWB owners dont give a $hit , dont know the differnce or didn't do there research.

To me "most" all the reasons for owning an OWB is bogus and B.S. and most of the time a cover up excuse for not knowing better.

 

[Rspike]

Lets address this "issue"? Its been posted as an excuse more than once.

have to deal with the stink, bugs, and mess in my house. Not to mention the higher insurance,

#1 "MY" insurance never went up. I have read that some insurance does go up per company , location ..ect..ect... about $100. a year. Thats a whopping $8.33 a month. So lets see ..... burn 1/3 less wood and not have to pay/work for the EXTRA 4-10 cords of wood vs $8.33 a month.

#2 "stink, bugs, and mess in my house" I dont smell smoke inside my house with my wood stove .........my youngest daughter has asthma and has never had a problem. We have even had our house tested 3 time in the lat 4 years.
Bugs ? No bugs here ........ wood is fully seasoned , and wood dont come in until after the 3rd freeze and even then it sits on the back porch and we bring the wood inside with 2 rubbermaid containers and when we full the stove we take the rubbermaid container to the stove and fill .
You would have to be a darwin to trail bugs and a wood mess through your house and get it all over. I agree that some people do make a big mess with indoor stoves and dont give a $hit and i also agree that some people heat there home with 9-12 cords of wood when it should only take 3-4 because they didnt know any better.

I'm not selling anything here and i dont own stock in indoor wood stoves nor do i work for any wood stove companies. This thread is all about options. Do your research , get your home work done and put your $$ down on what you think is right. You can read about the ban of outdoor wood boilers and how its happening more and more. You can look over the lab test done on OWB to see the lack of efficiency for the $$ invested.
I'm still waiting for real world emissions test and efficiency done on OWB that say otherwise.

You go out and buy a new car .......has the tested gas mileage listed.
You go out and buy a new dishwasher .... shows energy test.
You go out and buy a new hot water heater ......shows energy test.
You go out and buy a new indoor wood stove ..... shows energy test.

You go out and buy a new outdoor wood boiler ..... NO ENERGY TEST.
You would think for $7,000.00 ++ you would get an efficiency and energy test. Unless ..........They didnt want you to know.

 

[MS-310]

Well, I looked on the site you provided and could not come up with numbers anywhere near what you claimed.


Who sent you the email? CB, as stated in the other thread?


If you would have done the slightest amount of research on your own you would have found that there are on average 53,000 fires per year in homes in which heating devices were the cause,(this included apartments and trailers) over the span that you have mentioned.

http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?...URL=Research & Reports/Fire statistics/Causes

These averages were from ALL typs of heating equipment, not just wood burning sources. (which includes open fireplaces)

Im going to e-mail them (NFPA) to see if this is a true state ment just to prove my point or not.
What your link is from 1999 to 2002...... nothing to do what I stated.

 

[JeffHK454]

Not that it matters but about three posts in on this thread I emailed several manufacturers/dealers of OWBs for quotes on there efficiency ratings with no replies to date.

JH

 

[Butch(OH)]

"This thread is all about options." ??



Dang, when you going to make wisecracks like that how about giving a fellow a warning? I just spit coffee all over my monitor.

It's your thread son but one thing it isn't about is open minded discussion.

It is about you trying to convince the world that the circumstances that caused you to purchase an EPA stove are the only ones worthy of consideration.

But then again, no open minded person reading it needs to be told that I guess.


Options? I am still laughing about that one

Thanks for cheering up my morning

 

[Butch(OH)]

I know, I know I said I was going to quit posting here but daggone it too much disinformation being passed on.

OK you did accomplish one thing, you got me do some looking for some info from your friends at the EPA (note: not MY friends but YOURS) BUT before you do you might as well get another rant from me.

This entire discussion started with smoke and has run the entire gamut from running down the OWB in every way shape and form to suggesting that anyone who would even consider one may need psychiatric examination, thanks. You stated earlier that you are not totally against OWBs, hooey! How would anyone come to any other conclusion reading this thread? You have danced a fancy dance here going from one point to another and when the heat gets warm your out has been that we the(OWB users) on this thread are simply liars.

So punch the link dated February 1998 from YOUR friends at the EPA. Read what they had to say about boilers versus all other heating equipment INCLUDING the stoves THEY regulated and YOU own. Remember when you answer, (more like retaliate if like usual), that I DIDN'T do the test NOR did I write the article NOR am I putting a twist on it. Argue with their data, call them a liar and not me for presenting it. Remeber that these are the same people who you have been touting as the only ones with truthful answers.

Lets talk hug a tree, you know emissions, kill the earth and all that poop. Is my OWB about to kill the earth? What does it say?


“these furnaces’ (OWBs)
emissions were of the same order
as other stick wood burning appliances.”

Note: "other" This my friend includes EPA regulated stoves. What?? how could that be??

Now lets talk some more about harmful emissions, again quoted from the article.

If atmospheric conditions
are conducive for accumulating
smog-like clouds of emissions, the wood
smoke could pose a health hazard.

Again they are talking about my OWB AND your EPA stove.

Now lets talk about why OWBs have created such an uproar with smoke and nuisance claims, again quoted from the summery

The relatively
low chimney height of the central heating
furnace/boiler, compared to the conventional
wood stove installations, creates a
greater potential for the localization of objectionable
emissions in and around residences.


Notice it does not say because the OWBs emit more, it is because of low stack heights. One of your early arguments was if people are banning them it must be for a reason and that reason must be that they are more polluting. You just got shot out of the water here. So lets ban them because it is easier than having stack height regulations would seem to be your argument?

Now finally you keep pressing the point that your choice in heat is an environmentally good one and a OWB owners is bad one. What do your friends have to say about that?

meaningful. However,
from Table 2, it is evident that all
wood-burning home heating combustion
equipment, including wood stoves, boil3
ers, or fireplaces, has much higher particulate
matter emissions than gas- or oilfired
home heating furnaces.

Notice it says ALL? Your friends at the EPA do not share your view that you are being a friend of the environment by using your EPA stove as compared to us OWB owners.

Finally lets talk efficiency, better yet lets talk cost of operation because you are basically talking the cost of feeding it right? You’re the one that keeps quoting numbers. Now if you want to talk save a tree that is different and you have not started down that road (yet).

The data shows efficiency numbers from 45 to 55, lower than your EPA stove BUT,
At what cost to me? Not you or someone that has to pay $200 a cord but ME and my situation. This is where you get real lost. I don’t buy firewood so my cost is minimal. If I don’t mind making and extra trip to the furnace what skin is it off of your rear? Same as being outside in the cold when I feed it. Call me stupid for likeing to cut wood, that point I cannot argue.

In conclusion
1 Your claim to be a friend of the environment as comapred to us outlaw OWB owners has been shot down by YOUR side, go argue with them.

2.They say that to be the friend of the air you claim to be that you need to quit burning wood today as ANY cord wood stove, EPA or not pollutes more than gas or oil. My conclusion? If I am a envirnmental SOB for using a boiler you are one for using a woodstove. Why? Although the data says a OWB has slightly more emissions the summery states that the emissions are of no more consequence than the ones emitted by cord wood stoves including the EPA regulated ones like yours.

3. Smoke issues with OWBs are due to stack heights, not design of the firebox.



Thanks for making me look, I feel better