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Now MD you are baiting:hmm3grin2orange: I would say yes.

I'm one old dog with a lot of energy - so yeah, you were right on that one.

In a good mood I suppose.

Might be partly due to the county efficiently researching and taking care of a right of way need for our property today, but mostly sense of humor.
 
Would that instruction possibly include coordination
with the Arborist's input as well to come to the best
solution for the customer? I can't see a problem in
that type of professional relationship. The job and
customers interests, combined with safety and
respect between professionals would be management
at the highest level!
 
Would that instruction possibly include coordination
with the Arborist's input as well to come to the best
solution for the customer? I can't see a problem in
that type of professional relationship. The job and
customers interests, combined with safety and
respect between professionals would be management
at the highest level!

Exactly.

And similar to what I saw while on the landscape board. Board members coordinated with the administrator, staff, landscapers, arborists, landscape designers, and even an Assistant Attorney General who came to our meetings.

I'd imagine that Dr. Shigo had respect for many climbers as well.
 
If so, would you be kind enough to reawaken that "argument" thread about the ash, and tell us the right way to install a support system in such a challenging tree.

We look forward to learning how it's done, from someone who has done it all "& then some".

:popcorn:


First off the Ash tree was really not that big a challenge, Basic job tasks that I do every day (except for the support sys.), I do beleive I asked for suggestions on the support Sys, The biggest obstacle was the Arborist!!

I wasnt meaning the "I have done it all & then some" to come across as you have made it sound, what I was meaning by that statement is: I have atleast been taught, applied or tried as many things in regards to tree care as there are to be done, I am by no means a master at all of em!!! but have an understanding about alot of it, thats it!!

If I could post Pic`s I would, Im not a show boat & usually when on a job site im working & not worried about taking pic`s, I do have some neat home owner Pic`s of me cradling(spelling) a 30ft spruce top over his house & garage! these pics are on a cd/dvd so I might try to see about posting them!

Seer, the ash tree & support system to be installed would really be no big deal, just a co-dominant scenario pretty basic stuff!! is a rather tall tree though, now if it were a multi lead that had structural issues that I would try to post!! I will try regardless but this job has not yet been started!!

As far as Shigo goes, I thought it was Dr. Shigo...was he a certified Arborist? or an Honorary? & after all he was a Dr. in the field a little more training than the average CA has!!! If he Climbed what a slap in the non-climbing CA`s face that would be uhh? But he is/was a Doctor....can you say over qualified for climbing, what is a Doctors job description cause Ill bet he fulfilled it & then some!!!

M.D, from your posts its clear you have done work off the ground, Props for that!! I understand managing men & regardless of my Title & this is all im saying...... If you dont/havent or wont climb dont manage a climber!!!

I have been a sub for CA`s, a friend of mine is one, hires me on occassion because of my Lift, knowledge, etc.. & over all I will help anyone who needs it!!! he does CLIMB however!!! I have great respect for him & have learned things from him as he has from me.......bottom line when I work with him or anyone else for that matter my thought is:

There is no greater Authority up there(in the tree) than the person up there(in the tree) & as one on here stated!! I would never ask my men to do something that I wouldnt do!!


LXT...........
 
Ive been in the tree care buisness for a good while now and am looking into becoming certified i live in PA and work for Bartlett Tree Experts, the other arborists thier told me you have to work under an Arborist for 3 years before you can get certified is this true? Also can you take the test online and where to get study materials.



Here is the thread starters post! Look at what this guy was told by his fellow co-workers!! If all the things some of you say are true, why was he mis-informed like this, Maybe PA. just has a very arrogant, ignorant batch of CA`s & this is where my opinions (rants as some say) come from!!

hopefully other areas dont have this type of bunk going on!! It really does leave one with a bad impression!!

LXT..........
 
We interrupt this rant for a 4th time to clarify a misimpression. 3 years' experience in tree work is required; it need not be under, over or next to a CA.

lxt, posting pictures is as easy as pie. Let's talk about how to cable that ash.

This thread is dead.

:deadhorse:
 
We interrupt this rant for a 4th time to clarify a misimpression. 3 years' experience in tree work is required; it need not be under, over or next to a CA.

lxt, posting pictures is as easy as pie. Let's talk about how to cable that ash.

This thread is dead.

:deadhorse:



your opening remark is absolute BS, there are CA`s in my area that have no Exp. in tree work nor do they have any College!! cause they Lied do to the fact ISA doesnt/ did`nt check backgrounds they Now hold that Cert., real upstanding uhh? Im sure this is a common practice elsewhere to!!

Wonder how lawn service personnel become CA`s?:dizzy:


what would you like to know about cabling that Ash?....First I will do a hazard check from the ground....next( r u with me?) I will put on my PPE, heres the big one now.....I will then put on climbing gear for purposes of ascending the tree(something some CA`s cant do!) LOL.

NEXT:
I will ascend the tree for inspection & to get measurements as I have always done this prior to the installation, once I have the diameter of the limbs, approx length of the limbs(which I use a f.glass rod & string to reach areas unsafe to climb to obtain a precise measurement)unless I have access with my bucket!, I will also take into account the width of the crown, on top of all this & before entering the tree I inspect the root sys. & its surroundings as best I can!!

once I obtain this information & feel that the tree is a good candidate I then put together my materials list!!

So untill I do this, what you have before you is my procedure before the Install, Ill also have you know that If I have any doubts on something or just want assurance(2nd opinion) I have a friend of mine whom works for the Penn. State University arborculture division (beaver campus) stop out & take a look!!!

I have actually called on him several times....very nice guy!! & he`s always informative & gives the pros & cons pertaining to whatever the situation involves.

when Im ready for the install Treeseer Ill give you step by step details of how I did it!!

LXT.............
 
First off the Ash tree was really not that big a challenge, Basic job tasks that I do every day (except for the support sys.), I do beleive I asked for suggestions on the support Sys, The biggest obstacle was the Arborist.
LXT...........




Maybe I should have done what the CA wanted me to do :dizzy: take 1/2 the tree away, but NOoooo I fight to save it & even ask for suggestions on non-invasive procedures, I dont cable & brace every day!!! but have done my fair share, 35 this year!!!

seer, to think a CA like yourself would want to talk about support sys. with a ranting maniac like me.



LXT.......
 
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There is no greater Authority up there(in the tree) than the person up there(in the tree) & as one on here stated!! I would never ask my men to do something that I wouldnt do!!


LXT...........

so very right man.

i dont really know how one can say they are an arborist if they are not in on the daily grind of tree work. if you ride a desk that should be on your on title. i think there should be a different recognition for those that climb. something that would carry greater respect than just a certification
 
Becoming an Arborist

This is true. If a Manager is not climbing ,They should have a new Handel. I have been doing tree work for 27 Years and I am a Climbing Arborist. But I do Not Climb all the time and my job ( Lead Instructor)says I don't climb as much.
 
so very right man.

i dont really know how one can say they are an arborist if they are not in on the daily grind of tree work. if you ride a desk that should be on your on title. i think there should be a different recognition for those that climb. something that would carry greater respect than just a certification

That's not as hard as it seems.

First, what if someone has a college degree? Any college degree. Does that mean they are good or deserve respect? So how do you get something that carries extra respect? Probably self-respect.

But the solution are the letters, testimonials and thank-you notes. I store mine online:

Testimonials, Letters and Thank-you

Not many people ask to see them, like not many people ask to see my certification - but that's a real way of getting extra self-respect from the outside world. But it doesn't have to be written either.

Really, if we are doing the work the right way, what good would extra respect do beyond a Certified Arborist certification.

For me, it's sufficient to know that I'm doing the job right, even if the work is in isolation where nobody can see it. Basically, pride in our own work can supercede consideration of respect.
 
Anyone worth their own salt gets thank you letters, commendations & such, I have several from my church, neighbors, customers & even one from Baltimore Gas & Electric which was posted in Lewis tree`s cutting edge newsletter.

I think oldirty & I cant speak for em was implying that a climbing arborist should be recognized for that ability & thus not lumped into the same category as those Non-climbing, office type job Arborists!!!

this way the General public & the Commercial field can distiguish whos best for the job!!

case in point: One company here had their Secretary(young, fresh outta college) take the exam so they could get State Contracts, now she has worked there for a couple years, takes refresher college courses but not in tree care!! I guess this qualifies as exp. in tree work? she`s book smart & had the time for the test!! I guess she deserves to have the CA title & be considered an equal to the 20yr+ climber with Cert.?

C`mon even you diehard beleivin ya dont have to climb to be certified guys cant think this is right!!! she might be your boss someday(honestly I wouldnt mind)........but seriously!!

LXT...........
 
That's not as hard as it seems.

First, what if someone has a college degree? Any college degree. Does that mean they are good or deserve respect? So how do you get something that carries extra respect? Probably self-respect.

But the solution are the letters, testimonials and thank-you notes. I store mine online:

Testimonials, Letters and Thank-you

Not many people ask to see them, like not many people ask to see my certification - but that's a real way of getting extra self-respect from the outside world. But it doesn't have to be written either.

Really, if we are doing the work the right way, what good would extra respect do beyond a Certified Arborist certification.

For me, it's sufficient to know that I'm doing the job right, even if the work is in isolation where nobody can see it. Basically, pride in our own work can supercede consideration of respect.


what i meant by my post is this.

2 guys meet and start talking one says "what do you do"? the other says "i'm an arborist".

first guy says "oh really? thats cool. do you climb into the tree to see what is really going on"?

second guy says "no.... but i took a test and it says i am an arborist. certified even."

first guy says "well if you are not hands on with the tree how can you be an arborist?"

second guy says "that test i took. it says i am".


"oohhhh" says the first guy. "must be easy if you dont have to work... whens the next test"?
 
what i meant by my post is this.

2 guys meet and start talking one says "what do you do"? the other says "i'm an arborist".

first guy says "oh really? thats cool. do you climb into the tree to see what is really going on"?

second guy says "no.... but i took a test and it says i am an arborist. certified even."

first guy says "well if you are not hands on with the tree how can you be an arborist?"

second guy says "that test i took. it says i am".


"oohhhh" says the first guy. "must be easy if you dont have to work... whens the next test"?

:cheers:

LXT.............
 
Becoming an Arborist

All comes back to the Ground Bound Arborist and the Climbing Arborist. We do need both and we have both .But I never try to tell a climber how to
(except our students), I know I never liked anyone on the ground telling me how to. We get this with the US Forest Service guy's that have an CA and have never climbed they watch our class rig out any large tree next to their Trailer or shop and just try to guess where we learned to do that. My first partner called it (Motion Psychics). I do miss doing this all the time!!!
 
what i meant by my post is this.

2 guys meet and start talking one says "what do you do"? the other says "i'm an arborist".

first guy says "oh really? thats cool. do you climb into the tree to see what is really going on"?

second guy says "no.... but i took a test and it says i am an arborist. certified even."

first guy says "well if you are not hands on with the tree how can you be an arborist?"

second guy says "that test i took. it says i am".


"oohhhh" says the first guy. "must be easy if you dont have to work... whens the next test"?

Yeah...

Well there were these three guys over here chatting one day...

... A climbing certified arborist

... A non-climbing certified arborist

... A homeowner

In discussion, the climbing Certified Arborist claims that with his climbing knowledge, he's super-charged and 10 times smarter than the non-climber.

The non-climbing arborist shrewdly points out that his own Master's degree in arboriculture make him 5 times smarter than the climber.

Soon after, the homeowner asks a marvelous question of both arborists: "Gentlemen, either way, doesn't 10 x nothing = nothing?

Immediately, both arborists realized the homeowners wisdom, and that the whole time, they were equals. :)
 
Yeah...

Well there were these three guys over here chatting one day...

... A climbing certified arborist

... A non-climbing certified arborist

... A homeowner

In discussion, the climbing Certified Arborist claims that with his climbing knowledge, he's super-charged and 10 times smarter than the non-climber.

The non-climbing arborist shrewdly points out that his own Master's degree in arboriculture make him 5 times smarter than the climber.

Soon after, the homeowner asks a marvelous question of both arborists: "Gentlemen, either way, doesn't 10 x nothing = nothing?

Immediately, both arborists realized the homeowners wisdom, and that the whole time, they were equals. :)

are you really an astronaut if youve never been in space?
 
and yes LXT you did get what i was saying.

you are not going to get a real strong backing in this arguement you got going on in this thread because there are not enough working arborists on this site to really agree with you.

its semantics really this arborist arguement but there definitely should be a way to distinguish the difference between a working arbo and a non working arbo.

anyway you got these 2 who are out in the elements with you agreeing with you.
 
are you really an astronaut if youve never been in space?

It doesn't really matter. That's for the astronauts to figure out.

As far as arborists, an experienced arborist is an experienced arborist, and that's based on hands-on tree care and knowledge. Gear and size of tree is not relevant to determining what they are. Now if there are "certified arborists" who have minimal experiences, certainly they will be less adept than the CA with 20 years constant hands-on. But even the entry level CAs have 3 years. And I'll skip including the odds and ends for the moment who may have borderline tree care 3 years.

On another note, if a climber comes down to work on the smaller trees, odds are I can prune circles around that person.

One CA - a very experienced climber - who worked in Georgia for a long time, and in Oregon for a long time, as arborist, climber and business owner, said that my pruning work is the best he had ever seen.

Basically, you blow it out of proportion. I've got over a dozen trees on my own property including 200 year oaks, Douglas fir, madrone, ponderosa pine. And I can look out my window right now and see most of what they need.

And I can go into town tomorrow and get a lift or climbing gear and do to my big trees what I do to my small trees, but within the confines of what age and condition allows.

I can see a few codominant unions, even from the ground I can tell from the bark what's alive and what's not. Dead stubs stick out like a sore thumb, and 20% of the canopy is equally as easy to judge from the ground as it is from above.

In addition, I know how to avoid damaging the bark with ropes and gear, what time of year the bark is more likely to slip-loose.

My plan may change once up in the tree, but where the ropes will be placed is already fairly obvious.

So you need to put your foolishness to rest.

I'm not going to tell you or other skilled climbers how to use your gear, but it will be a cold day in hell if you climbing makes you more capable to handle tree care. Because although I may not accomplish the task identically in equipment terms, I can meet or or exceed the quality of finished product.

Been there - done that.

The reason I was looking at my trees today, is I was out in the rainstorm taking some Madrone photos for Ekka's website. And glancing at our large trees and noticing a few needs in them, comments like yours came to mind and I amusingly chuckled. Especially since most arborists I know, don't usually climb to give an estimate, but they can see most issues from below. And anything that can be hidden up in a canopy, has occured at head level as well. Any problem I've ever seen in a big tree at 80', has also been found at head level, waist level, sometimes ground level. Even with big trees, the same issues can occur down low.

What makes a good arborist, is being an experienced arborist.

Because if you need climbing gear in big trees to be a good arborist, obviously one might need an orchard ladder and boots for small trees to be a good arborist. See, if you want to be logical, you have to expand your logic to all aspects and all sizes, as closely as possible. And your form of logic is not logical enough to handle the full scope of arboriculture.
 
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Having spent most of my adult life in canopy I understand
feeling being conveyed here,however I do believe there are
non climbing arborists that contribute greatly to phc.
Those persons holding masters in horticulture or equivalent
I can learn from. I have no problem with a person with more
knowledge advising me in consultation especially in consults
which allow my input! I have been proved wrong in many
instances and learned a great deal from this interaction.
The bottom line in my humble opinion, should be phc for
the customer! I feel it can be performed by professional
relationships with climbing and non climbing arborists.
I also feel I could be employed by one, if it was a professional
cooperation and not feel threatened. I have learned most
of what I know about biology,physiology,soil management etc.
by the writings of these individuals. I would not however
be a candidate that could work under a ca with less knowledge
than I. We all work for someone and if the reward ether
in $ or satisfaction of surroundings is adequate and suits
your individual growth and supports phc what is the problem?
 

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