Becoming and Arborist

[lxt]

As I sit here & read posts pertaining to Certified/Non-certified It has actually prompted me to open up & gloss through the Arborists Certification Study Guide. Why is that you ask? surprised LXT even has such? Im reading this book to try to find out where some of you are coming from!!

As I gloss through the book I must actually thank some of you as it has refreshed my memory in some aspects I may have forgotten or just dont use that often.


Special Note:
I do notice something of interest though, a chapter I dont give much attention to......chapter 15 MMmmm Im wondering why would climbing & working in trees have a chapter in an arborist study guide? along with sample test questions? I mean whats its purpose? according to some of you these skills are a by-product & not really necessary, a means to an end as one posted!! The truth is gentleman you are suppose to climb & have intimate knowledge in that ability!! you can argue the non-climbing aspects all you want.

Like a good spaghetti sauce, Its in there!!

Again the CA designation has been simplified to a point I bet a 14-15yr old
kid could pass it!! without a skills test plain and simply put, this certification borders on being a joke!! Chapter 15 isnt in there for nothing!!

LXT..............

 

[Job Corps Tree]

Becoming a Arborist

I have been a CA for 10 Years ,Best thing I have done. I had been doing Tree Work for 17 years when I took the ISA test,

 

[M.D. Vaden]

As I sit here & read posts pertaining to Certified/Non-certified It has actually prompted me to open up & gloss through the Arborists Certification Study Guide. Why is that you ask? surprised LXT even has such? Im reading this book to try to find out where some of you are coming from!!

As I gloss through the book I must actually thank some of you as it has refreshed my memory in some aspects I may have forgotten or just dont use that often.


Special Note:
I do notice something of interest though, a chapter I dont give much attention to......chapter 15 MMmmm Im wondering why would climbing & working in trees have a chapter in an arborist study guide? along with sample test questions? I mean whats its purpose? according to some of you these skills are a by-product & not really necessary, a means to an end as one posted!! The truth is gentleman you are suppose to climb & have intimate knowledge in that ability!! you can argue the non-climbing aspects all you want.

Like a good spaghetti sauce, Its in there!!

Again the CA designation has been simplified to a point I bet a 14-15yr old
kid could pass it!! without a skills test plain and simply put, this certification borders on being a joke!! Chapter 15 isnt in there for nothing!!

LXT..............

Might not be as big a concern as it seems.

When I took my landscape licenses as well, and served 6 years on the Oregon license board as a board member, I didn't get too concerned about why there was an entire section in the exam on laws and rules.

It's just something they wanted to make sure the landscape people didn't miss.

But I see no way that knowing all the laws and rules makes any landscaper proficient at the technical aspect of what they do. It supposedly makes them a more aware contractor withing the contracting business aspect.

Of course ISAs chapters are there for something. The chapters are there because ISA wants them there.

ISA and the Oregon Landscape Contractors Board both have something in common. They both realize that the tests include aspects which won't be done by the professional. The testing programs are designed to cause "The Whole" to be accountable and knowledgeable beyond the scope of the individual. And it's done by the testing giving to each individual.

 

[D Mc]

Mario, thanks for posting those nice pictures. Restoration takes not only skill but knowledge and self-control realizing you can't fix it all at once. Well done.

I consider bonsai one of the highest forms of artistic pruning. I have seen many guys who can climb trees well, some that were true technicians at removals and very few that had both the ability to climb and the artistic eye to produce a work of art through pruning.

I also like the use of separation of turf and trees. We are strong advocates of this separation and trying to educate our clients that trees and turf are not "fish and chips". They actually do better seperated.


Lxt, whether an arborist can climb or not climb physically is a round robin argument. It is no more correct to say you can climb a tree therefore you are an arborist. That is the whole reason the certification came into place; to protect homeowners from tree climbers with that attitude. The fact is, most certified arborists do know something about climbing, and I think they should. But to limit the entire field to just those few people who have both the physical and mental skills capable of the difficult jobs is not appropriate in today's world. There are 14 other chapters in the Arborist's Cert Study Guide dealing with all the many aspects of being an arborist. Today's arborist needs to have a broader knowledge than ever before.

If you do not have your certification, go ahead and get it so you can be one of the few that you feel "deserve" to have it. After all..."it's so easy".

D Mc

 

[OTG BOSTON]

fought the good fight

Mario, you fought the good fight. Threads like this are useless. Although the post above says it all............

 

[NYCHA FORESTER]

Now I understand

 

[lxt]

If you do not have your certification, go ahead and get it so you can be one of the few that you feel "deserve" to have it. After all..."it's so easy".

D Mc

In regards to the above, why would I want to get it? to pay out a ridiculous amount of money so I can be part of the "club", so I can say Im much more knowledgeable & ohh by the way I can actually climb & perform what the Cert. title suggests!! I already do this!! as I sit here & type this I am surrounded by books, photos,training manuals etc.. that pertain to our biz, I study this field as often as possible, am a member of many org`s for the betterment of tree care & the practices involved.

you guys who actually have the Cert. & the climbing exp. I have no beef with you & respect you!! dont you feel disenfranchised that others have the same Cert.(book knowledge) & not the ability to go aloft to perform & apply that knowledge?

I think this is a "round robin" fight because more & more people are obtaining this CA designation & lack/dont want the skills to apply what they know up there!! & by agreeing to that fact would be admitting what Ive been saying all along.

By the very definition of the term Arborist: I am one, as well are others!! the fact that we are not certified by an entity that monopolizes the field makes no difference! In my meetings with CA`s I have found myself to be just as knowing in some areas, more in some & less in others.

broader knowlegde with the inability to use it except for on the ground in some`s case....very nice, Im just glad atleast my groundies can perform an aerial rescue if need be!! & I beleive safety was one of the other Chapters too.

LXT..........

 

[ropensaddle]

lxt I may have agreed with you on some of your management
issues earlier. I feel it is different in this scenario,a coordination
of professionals is way different than where this headed.
I work with landscape architects from time to time in my
local area and that is way different than boss this and that.
I feel the high end work MD is doing he doesn't go telling a
arborist how to climb, but does make sure he is who he says he is!
I also feel he would pay for the best suited for the job and if
thats the case,what is the problem with that? The relationships
with my local landscape architect's has made me some very
good money and no rush type work! Coordinating by someone
with a breadth of knowledge superior to mine is what learning
is all about.

 

[lxt]

Might not be as big a concern as it seems.

When I took my landscape licenses as well, and served 6 years on the Oregon license board as a board member, I didn't get too concerned about why there was an entire section in the exam on laws and rules.

It's just something they wanted to make sure the landscape people didn't miss.

But I see no way that knowing all the laws and rules makes any landscaper proficient at the technical aspect of what they do. It supposedly makes them a more aware contractor withing the contracting business aspect.

Of course ISAs chapters are there for something. The chapters are there because ISA wants them there.



ISA and the Oregon Landscape Contractors Board both have something in common. They both realize that the tests include aspects which won't be done by the professional. The testing programs are designed to cause "The Whole" to be accountable and knowledgeable beyond the scope of the individual. And it's done by the testing giving to each individual.

There are books on the laws of Arborculture, even the tree wardens handbook has case law quoted in it!! laws & rules should be outlined by each town, city, etc..when you acquire the permit or work order, thats why there are inspectors!! these sections are there for reference, not for you to know!!

This is why we have Lawyers, if you were tested on the law in this regard you would no doubt then think you have the right to represent also!!

you think ISA wants it there? its there because you needed to do it in order to become an arborist!! the only difference that has changed in todays requirement!

I thought your arguement was "Management" Now landscape pic`s, where Im from grass cutters do just what you have shown here, seriously!! not meant as a bust, Even demo. co`s put in lawns, tress & water features.
as long as they follow the rules & guidlines as set forth by the authority that oversees adherence to these rules.......that is the problem with ISA & CA`s.

You guys wanna be the overseeing authority & think your title gives you jurisdiction over & above what it stands for( some of you!!), as Long as I follow ANSI rules & regulations, which I beleive is the authority governing this matter & if so why then I dont see the need to become a CA.

I think memberships, newsletters, mag`s & other Info to keep one abreast of new technologies, methods, theories, etc...while implementing & following the guidelines mentioned above is just as good as any Cert. relating to this field.


LXT............

 

[lxt]

lxt I may have agreed with you on some of your management
issues earlier. I feel it is different in this scenario,a coordination
of professionals is way different than where this headed.
I work with landscape architects from time to time in my
local area and that is way different than boss this and that.
I feel the high end work MD is doing he doesn't go telling a
arborist how to climb, but does make sure he is who he says he is!
I also feel he would pay for the best suited for the job and if
thats the case,what is the problem with that? The relationships
with my local landscape architect's has made me some very
good money and no rush type work! Coordinating by someone
with a breadth of knowledge superior to mine is what learning
is all about.

I agree if this is the true intent! & am always willing to learn, but Im not hold a non-climbing CA`s opinion to mean much if it deals with issues aloft, can we all atleast agree on this!!

LXT.........good post!

 

[OTG BOSTON]

you guys who actually have the Cert. & the climbing exp. I have no beef with you & respect you!! dont you feel disenfranchised that others have the same Cert.(book knowledge) & not the ability to go aloft to perform & apply that knowledge?

how can I put this to make you understand????

NO

 

[ropensaddle]

I agree if this is the true intent! & am always willing to learn, but Im not hold a non-climbing CA`s opinion to mean much if it deals with issues aloft, can we all atleast agree on this!!

LXT.........good post!

Safety issues aloft can be hard to spot from the ground so yes!
I don't feel that is what MD has been saying at all! I do know
there are control freaks out there and is a way different scenario
than someone holding a bs or masters in horticulture, coordinating
with arborist. I have been in these scenarios and learned something
every time!

 

[lxt]

how can I put this to make you understand????

NO

Then you are one of the very few!!!

I just dont understand how someone in a field relating specifically to trees & is suppose to be the steward for the industry for the care & maintenance of them, Actually beleive they dont need to be able to climb to perform what is clearly a function of their titles duty!!

Ex: I tell my Utility CA that a limb on an oak tree is gonna fail what do you want me to do? nothing he says!! cause production is key here!! later that summer Im back taking that limb off the 3 phase, utility checks the work order, I take guff over it cause I should of known better than to leave something like that!!

Did that CA step up? Hell NO! & knowing he will inspect future work of mine I let it go, dont wanna upset the ole CA, same reply Ive heard a dozen times from certain CA`s "I dont go up there" If I did what would I need you for?

this is wrong!! if you cant atleast get up there to inspect something(no ones asking you to take down some chest thumping 100ft oak tree) then you dont deserve to be a CA!! Plain & simple.

LXT...........

 

[lxt]

Id like to ask a question, & I dont mean to come off rude or non-civil as I think some may have that thought & if so I apologize.

I am a Certified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer!! I have undergone hands on as well as classroom training, within the classroom....I and many others were trained using ANSI regulations....NAA,ACRT, ISA & Davey Tree training formaids, took tests which would rival any test for a CA out there & these test were actually overseen by representatives from the entities mentioned above.

it was pass or fail at which time results were sent to the JATC (joint apprenticeship training council) & a certification granted by the Dept of Labor was issued upon successful completion!! Now.... I have identified trees, diagnosed & provided remedy`s, performed just about all aspects of tree care that can be done at one time or another & then some!!

The training is ongoing & refresher courses are offered along with workplace tailgate meetings, safety meetings, etc...etc...

So tell me what more the ISA`s CA designation will do for me, is it truely that over & above what I have been through? I probably attend more add on training & refresher courses dealing with the proper care of trees not just in utility settings but in residential & other settings in a month than most CA`s go through in their 3yr ceu obtaining time frame.

Just wandering how the CA title is any better than what I already have?

LXT..............

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Id like to ask a question, & I dont mean to come off rude or non-civil as I think some may have that thought & if so I apologize.

I am a Certified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer!! I have undergone hands on as well as classroom training, within the classroom....I and many others were trained using ANSI regulations....NAA,ACRT, ISA & Davey Tree training formaids, took tests which would rival any test for a CA out there & these test were actually overseen by representatives from the entities mentioned above.

it was pass or fail at which time results were sent to the JATC (joint apprenticeship training council) & a certification granted by the Dept of Labor was issued upon successful completion!! Now.... I have identified trees, diagnosed & provided remedy`s, performed just about all aspects of tree care that can be done at one time or another & then some!!

The training is ongoing & refresher courses are offered along with workplace tailgate meetings, safety meetings, etc...etc...

So tell me what more the ISA`s CA designation will do for me, is it truely that over & above what I have been through? I probably attend more add on training & refresher courses dealing with the proper care of trees not just in utility settings but in residential & other settings in a month than most CA`s go through in their 3yr ceu obtaining time frame.

Just wandering how the CA title is any better than what I already have?

LXT..............

I see the entire body of Certified Arborists as an armor-plating around the profession to protect it from damage. Whatever certification that may be that fits the need.

It should not boil-down to what your profession can do for you, but what you can do for your profession.

Certification is a gift.

ISA did not give to me by granting a certification. I gave to them and others by allowing my support and time to maintain that credential.

If there was no certification, people would have one more obstacle to try and figure out who was knowledgeable.

Certification "gives" the public an extra measure with which to arrive at a decision.

So once again, I see getting Certification as doing something to help other people. It makes it just one step harder for lazy or irrisponsible workers to put a dent in the entire profession.

 

[treeseer]

"dont you feel disenfranchised that others have the same Cert.(book knowledge) & not the ability to go aloft to perform & apply that knowledge?"

NO, not at all. OTG and i know that CA and CTW are different "franchises". I spent 5.5 hours aloft today rigging down 2 white oaks 20" dbh 70' tall in a tight back yard. It's good to know I can still do the work at my advanced age, but all in all a pretty boring day. Not much BCMA knowledge was applied,but the CA rigging stuff came in handy, as well as the CTW climbing knowhow. I was paid well, but I did it mainly for the wood. It's cold!

I am a Certified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer!!

That's cool; you can be proud of that. I cleared lines for years but never had that taining, which may explain some of my mistakes.:blush:

I have identified trees, diagnosed & provided remedy`s, performed just about all aspects of tree care that can be done at one time or another & then some .

If so, would you be kind enough to reawaken that "argument" thread about the ash, and tell us the right way to install a support system in such a challenging tree.

We look forward to learning how it's done, from someone who has done it all "& then some".

opcorn:

 

[BostonBull]

I climb, and have my cert. I dont harbor ANY feelings towards guys who dont climb at all, or never have. Because they would outperform me in other areas such as disease and pest, while I would outoerform those types in a tree.

Correct me if I am wrong but Alex Shigo wasnt known for his climbing! Does that make him NOT an Arborist?

 

[nitwit dolt]

The difference

Could this be it? Could this be the defining moment for arboristsite? Do we finally understand the difference between a tree guy and an arborist ( and the guy who can be both)?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I climb, and have my cert. I dont harbor ANY feelings towards guys who dont climb at all, or never have. Because they would outperform me in other areas such as disease and pest, while I would outoerform those types in a tree.

Correct me if I am wrong but Alex Shigo wasnt known for his climbing! Does that make him NOT an Arborist?

That's a classic !!

I've gleaned from Dr. Shigo's teaching about what a climber needs to do and ought to do, and suppose he would be the type of professional I would envision as one who could have managed tree care and arborists.

Yeah, I've never really heard or read much about him that leaves me with the impression that he was a climber. But it looks like he spent a lot of time managing and directing all types of arborists including climbing arborists.

There were "climbers" that carried out his instruction, right? opcorn:

When I think of Dr. Shigo, the first and foremost thing that comes to mind, are his photographs, his teaching and his writing. And his dissecting. But I'd consider him an arborist 100%. If he is not an arborist - then who is?

Can't raise a glass, but here is raising a photo to Dr. Shigo ...

... sunburn damage - my next article to be written ...

 

[ropensaddle]

That's a classic !!

I've gleaned from Dr. Shigo's teaching about what a climber needs to do and ought to do, and suppose he would be the type of professional I would envision as one who could have managed tree care and arborists.

Yeah, I've never really heard or read much about him that leaves me with the impression that he was a climber. But it looks like he spent a lot of time managing and directing all types of arborists including climbing arborists.

There were "climbers" that carried out his instruction, right? opcorn:

Now MD you are baiting:hmm3grin2orange: I would say yes.