Branch choked w/ biner for SRT

[mikecross23]

I'm trying to learn to splice my climbing line to cut down on the knot's bulk and time spent tieing. I was thinking, instead of using a running bowline to choke the limb for SRT, would it be safe to choke it w/ a biner on an eye splice? That way when you reach the target crotch, you don't have to tie anything. Just unclip the rope from it's self and clip in and you are ready to go!

Could that create a side loading factor on the biner that could be dangerous?

-Mike-

 

[mikecross23]

another thought?

if you don't want to climb all the way to the target crotch, clip a long loop runner or several together to create the desired length tail so you can retreive the biner easier and lower.

 

[treeclimber165]

Side loading is the biggest consideration. I will admit to doing it, but only if the limb is large enough to minimize side loading. I also make sure to align the biner in such a way as to prevent loading on the gate (make sure the gate will be on the top side when choked).
OK, Y'all can let me have it for this improper use of biners. I also use steel biners instead of a running bowline for choking limbs for rigging.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Brian, Brian, Brian,

You're getting kind of edgy lately, how come?

Before my SRT system evolved into what I use now I would do what Brian does occasionally. I never did feel very comfortable choking my climbing biners. If the limb had smooth bark and was over 12", I might consider choking. But, why concern yourself with cross loading and just send a running bowline up or go to a better SRT system using an access line?

In the case of choking around a higher limb than you need to climb to, there's a neater solution. Tie a bowline on a bight or other mid-line loop a given distance from the end of the rope. Set this loop as your choker and the tail will hang down to where you climb and tie in. This would only work if you don't climb with a false crotch. Who doesn't these days ?

Tom

 

[treeclimber165]

Tom,
I'm sure my climbing techniques will continue to evolve. Perhaps one day I might even meet someone who consistently uses a false crotch. Hasn't happened yet. I was rather surprised to meet some rather highly regarded climbers here who simply said that a false crotch was too much hassle and not worth the effort. Climbers may speak about $150 RG systems online, but when they go to work they use a natural crotch (or at least the ones I've met so far). I'm looking forward to actually seeing someone use one AND do it faster than using a natural crotch.

The few false crotch setups I've seen (in real life and pictures online) were all brand-spanking-new or maybe used once. I used my first friction saver (the double ring style from B'Ham) about 10 years ago. I think I climbed on it twice, then it was delegated to rigging. Lost it about 2 months later and never got another.

I guess you and I travel in different circles. Looking forward to eventually meeting a climber from 'the other side'.

 

[mikecross23]

Tom,
The reason I want to use the biner to choke the limb is so I don't have to untie the bowline w/ long tail and retie my anchor knot. Just unclip the biner and clip to your saddle. I use a running bowline w/ long tail now and will continue if my idea is deemed unsafe by others. My own judgment says it's ok to use on large diameter branches. Small branches, I see the problem.

 

[NeTree]

Ok, here's a thought:

Why not just splice a 6" eye one end of your climbing line? Use that to choke your limb, with a utility biner clipped in the eye and a retrieval line (or throw line, in my case). Since the biner is only to run the eye back to you, safety is not an issue. Leave you saddle biner clipped to your saddle, and clip the eye in when you retrieve it.

Like this:

I clip my saddle beaner around the throw line to keep track of it while I ascend, and the throw weight at the other end keeps me from losing it.

 

[Greg]

Using a biner to choke a line for SRT I don't think the side loading refers to pressure on the gate by the rope. I read a buzzz thread that Gerry B(i think) wrote about how he sat at the biner watching somone climb like that and saw the biner flexing a bit. I took this as flexing with the curve of the tree rather than due to the rope pulling on the gate, and as Tom mentioned the diameter of the TIP would weigh heavily on how much that Biner will Flex. I wouldn't feel bad on a big fat branch where the biner gets to lay pretty flat on the tree, especially with a steel biner, but a biner doesn't really save you a lot of time. I tie a real rope on the Bowline loop with a good knot that I know will pull that sucka down, don't really need to use a biner. Been playing a little with SRT lately, but I'm not a convert yet.
Greg

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If the carab is flexing on an axis it was nto designed to move then the cycles to failure may be grately increased.

maybe something for Tom to fly by Denny Moorehouse.

 

[mikecross23]

My take on the responses to my question is. . .

When the need to choke the tip with a biner arises, I think I should delegate a steel rigging one instead of my typical aluminum life support biners. Then when I reach the tip, unclip the steel biner and clip in w/ aluminum one. That extra unclip and reclip kind of voids the whole purpose of choking the limb w/ the biner. I could untie a running bowline and retie an anchor hitch in almost the same amount of time. It might would save me a little time in retieing, and using a steel biner will avoid putting unneccessary stress by side loading the aluminum carabiner. Might just be complicating things, but hey, it won't hurt to give it a try.

out
-Mike-

 

[Dan Flinn]

I might have asked this before, but am I wrong to set my SRT line over a limb and tie it with a running bowline at the base of the tree? I know that it creates more force on the limb that the line is over, but this seems easier given that a line set with a bigshot is rarely (for me) in the position I want to climb from.

When I get to my TIP , I can either use a climbing line that I brought with me or I can have my ground man untie the SRT line and use it.

Maybe I'm missing something, help!

Dan

 

[mikecross23]

It's my understanding that your way is the safest way other than over loading the crotch w/ 2x the weight. First, if something does go wrong, then you have a means for rescue w/ the tail that is tied at the base. Second, if the branch breaks, then you most likely will have one or two more branches below the original one to catch your fall. To me it sounds like Tom D. prefers a similar method as you describe. I do a lot of rec climbing by myself and don't have anyone to untie from the base of the tree. It takes more time to isolate the target crotch, but usually isn't too hard for me.

 

[Dan Flinn]

Thanks Mike,

I haven't been fortunate enough to cllimb with these guys and am left to my own devices to try new things. It's nice to be reassured now and again.

I've been following your splicing efforts and I think I might try my own....

Dan

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Maybe tag that carab with some paint so it does not get used in any rigging apps and recieve shock loading.

 

[Higherup]

using biner to choke limb for srt

Ive been using a biner for srt for several yrs now and never once gave it any thought as to the side loading of the biner and dont see it as a problem either, I would sacrifice $16 and do a test if you are worried about the dynamics of a biner w/side load cuz your not going to be comfortable untill u know for sure, I read on here quite often and never commit, for sake that I might hurt someones feelings or I feel if i cant say anything nice then stay quiet, but I wonder how some of you experienced climbers make any money with all the precautions and apprehensions you take, I believe in being safe as much as the next guy (especially as the owner of my own bussiness) but somethings i read on here just blow me away. I tell my new climbers to use common sense and good judgement and If it doesnt feel right it probably isnt and never second guess yourself.

 

[treeclimber165]

Higherup

Welcome to the party. Where is Cinti, anyway?

Common sense isn't always so common. I agree that each climber should think through every action and feel safe with their approach rather than blindly trusting someone else's opinion. But since I've heard about biners getting side loaded I pay extra attention to them to make sure I am not overloading part of my life support system.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

This is not just side loading, this is a bending not intended in the design, where the axis of intended loading is being warped.

These cycles of flexing can cause metal fatigue.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

On side loading carabiners:
There are bold climbers, there are old climbers, but there aren't any old, bold climbers.

On climbing with a false crotch:
A guy that can splice a rope, can home make a really top notch adjustable friction saver(ask Tim W.), and try it out. It is a huge labor saver, like going from tautline, to VT or Distel. If you can't splice, Sherrill sells some great FC's. The biggest benefit will be noticed anytime you work requires you to go up and down during the job, but limb walks are a whole new experience too.

On splicing:
The most important part of splicing, other than some proper training, is to test splices. Pretty don't mean ****.

 

[budroe69moni]

mike,
from what i've read, the only reason for you
wanting to use a biner instead of a running
bowline is to save time? what's your hurry
man???? you've got the greatest job in the
world.....what's a minute or two to catch your
breath and take a look around after a long
ascent????? savor the flavor brother!!!! there's
nothing like it!!!!
budroe

 

[Higherup]

Sorry, Cinti is an abreviation for Cincinnati. In reference to the side loading caribiner, when I set an SRT it is next to something above 12". So the biner is flat against the trunk anyway. I can see if it was smaller in diameter you could bend the biner. But again using these for rigging situations biner get misdirected and misaligned all the time so I guess you are taking a risk anyway.