Choose One: M.S. 441 or M.S. 460

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Treeco

Of course you are right...

Only..

If EPA and EURO norms would mean anything more than regulations with the aim to restrict and tax. Not so, they are only stimulating niche markets and product changes in an old field: oil powered combustion engines.

Promoted as being an environmental friendly measure they only force consumption (creating more waste) and put new borders so we as customers have no choice to follow the anti-evolution and buy the so called more green generation engines.

If tomorrow a 4stroke sawchain is giving me the same performance i might buy one. But that is not the point. By restricting exhaust emisions they are preventing old design engines to work optimally. I dare asking what is more polluting: a 5 sec modded cut or a 10sec chocked cut.

It was very easy to play the sulfur, lead and CO2 parts in exhaust gasses as the public recognizes them immediately as bad elements. Nobody is asking about the other stuff in exhaust gasses that might need the previous 3 in some amount to give a clean burn.

Now also, the more posionous parts are found in lower concentrates and it might prove impossible to avoid them in a combustion engine, be it 2 stroke, 4 stroke, strato or whatever advanced design. When focussing on these parts it would mean they( EPA etc) are virtually pressing the oil industry into the corner of new energy sources. And they dont want to bite the hand that feeds them of course...

The oil guys and their lobbies were able to kill a lot of new ideas by putting that much pressure (time and performance) on them in early stages of development that they openly failed in their task. (nuclear, wind, sun energy)

As pressure rises, more and more people start wondering why our evolution stopped at the combustion engine,or oil as a general energy source, the oil business is allowing the governements a piece of the cake by these new green taxation laws.

They dont care, alternatives are not available and above all, they CAN as the whole world is powered by their medium. What can the oh-so-small alternative energy scene offer besides a cleaner environment???

So we see 2 things happen; a HP becomes more expensive and less powerfull. I am paying my taxes when i buy a restricted engine, so i think i am entitled to improve it or destroy it as much as i want after that.

Keep on modding!

:cheers:


Visit this link to The Global Warming Swindle for some more inspiration: http://www.one-life-live-it.be/frm/portal.php
Science has no money so it can be ignored.
 
Back on topic: to quote Lakeside his sig:

“Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
--Not Arthur C. Clarke,
 
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TreeCo said:
Emissions have me wondering about modded chainsaws. Is getting through a cut a little faster worth breathing a bunch more pollution?

It's easy to write off working in a more polluted local environment. What health cost are the operators paying? These saws are right in our faces!
Click to expand...

What specifically are you worried about?

It is very clear that the more work a saw dose, the further the exhaust ends up from the operator.

But the primary only change there is from a stock/modded saws is the temp. of combustion.

Choked mufflers or EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) lower the combustion temp. lowering the formation of NOx (nitrogen oxide) .

NOx is not a real threat to the operator directly. It is more of an 'acid-rain' gas.

Running a bucket truck while the saw is running will pour a lot more pollution into the envroment then the saw alone will.

Turning the truck off sooner is a greener plan.

Mod-Away!
 
D.D.T.- though weight probably does fall somewhere among these +'s and -'s you speak of, whoever made a purchase based solely on weight would really be missing the big picture (good point)! Since you have both- can you notice a difference in power between the two? What about what S.T. mentioned regarding the recently "adjusted" weights- notice any difference between the two, or pretty much dead even? Any other plusses and/or minuses I might have overlooked on these two? My dealer said the M.S. 441 was the most commonly complained about with problems getting it started, but I suspect that's limited to newbs that don't know how to operate their chainsaws I.T.F.P.! For you both models are probably equally easy to start, right?

THanks for the input.
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Both were bought new and are stock. I run my 441 with a 20" bar and the 460 with a 25" bar. Same type chain, full chisel professional chain always. The 441 will run the 25" but not as strong as the 460. The 460 starts easier than the 441. 441 always needs 1-2 extra pulls when cold off the truck. After that they are equal. Not enough that it bothers me just a fact of owning the saw. 441 has MUCH better anti-vibe and is smoother in the cut than the 460. They both oil fine as I have both oilers set to max, neither runs out before the fuel. Never looked at gas usuage since I make a living with the saws and they pay for themselves, when they run out of gas I fill them up. I am not crazy about the air filter setup on the 411, but it does stay cleaner longer so I have to fuss with it less. I like them both and I use them each for their respective purpose, longer bar = bigger saw. JMHO
 
TreeCo said:
Unburnt hydrocarbons that are passing right through the saw directly in front of the operator. This is why Stihl is moving towards 'fresh air' for purging the cylinder in their two strokes and why the 4-mix engines are entering the market.
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Other then an engine running too lean*, the old rule applies, NOx up, HC down , conditions that will form NOx will more completely burn HC .

Fresh air purging would not do as much for unburnt HC as a catalytic converter would. Purging and a converter is the last thing we would like to see in a hand-held engine, as it would rob a lot of power.


The beauty of a 4-cycle is the burn time compared to a 2-smoker, you can open exhaust valves way latter then you need to pop exhaust out of a scavening engine.

*Lean knock will have hi HC and NOx , another reason for limiter-caps.
 
Never ran a 441 but would like to give one a spin. Feels good on the sales floor and looks awesome, like all Stihls.

Ran a few 440s and 460s, both great saws. The 460's vibes are not that much worse than the 361(spring anti vibe, like the 441). Pick up and use the 361 then switch to the 460 and you will forget about vibes.:chainsaw: If you have any mind to mod the saw, go for the 460, they are just plain bad arse when ported. The 460 pulls a 25" great and has enough grunt to go up to 32". I really can't say which one to get, not having run the 441. I don't think you will find a better built saw either. The best way to decide is run 'em.

:dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy: :D
 
Hey B.L.S. thanks for the on-topic push (impossible!), but it's O.K. because some of the arguments here are changing my understanding a little. I wonder, does anyone else's clothes smell like gas (to the point where a double washing is necessary!) at the end of the day? Unless that means something's wrong with my tuning (B.T.W. does it?), I assume the exhaust is getting me with that smell, by design? Maybe a "greener" model wouldn't be as bad in that respect, of course use less fuel overall, less pollutants to breathe (N.T.M. smoother). Anyways, I kind of get the "refuse to choose" perspective now. These changes are coming across the board, like it or not, so fixating on what advantages older vs. current vs. future models have -in a vacuum- is irrelevant; and since all these saws are so powerful for how little they weigh, +/- a few ounces or a fraction of a H.P. isn't such a big deal anyways. I mean it's not like I feel I HAVE to mod my current saw, which would be a must if power-to-weight ratio were all important to me- so why prioritize P.T.W. ratios so high when shopping for a bigger saw? It's just that like $ value, "weight value" out-of-the-box can be a hard stat to ignore on paper.


Dadatwins said:
Both were bought new and are stock. I run my 441 with a 20" bar and the 460 with a 25" bar. Same type chain, full chisel professional chain always. The 441 will run the 25" but not as strong as the 460. The 460 starts easier than the 441. 441 always needs 1-2 extra pulls when cold off the truck. After that they are equal. Not enough that it bothers me just a fact of owning the saw. 441 has MUCH better anti-vibe and is smoother in the cut than the 460. They both oil fine as I have both oilers set to max, neither runs out before the fuel. Never looked at gas usuage since I make a living with the saws and they pay for themselves, when they run out of gas I fill them up. I am not crazy about the air filter setup on the 411, but it does stay cleaner longer so I have to fuss with it less. I like them both and I use them each for their respective purpose, longer bar = bigger saw. JMHO
Click to expand...

Great, thanks alot for the insight! T.B.H. even slightly harder starting does make me hesitate, but assuming I could learn how it would be a non-issue for me too. Overall I see the appeal of the M.S. 441. I'm still leaning toward the M.S. 460, though I don't think I could make the wrong choice between these two for something bigger to pair with my M.S. 260! Obviously it's too early to make any kind of reliability or durability comparisons (being Stihls I'm sure they are both top-notch in that regard)!


Thanks all.
 
I voted for the 441. It's a lovely firewood saw and I have done tons (literally) of felling and limbing with it.

I do have a 181 and that thing is a beast. Definitely notice the vibes but love the deep growl of that saw. So... don't really need (did I just write that?) another saw in the 460 class.
 

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