Do you ALWAYS pre install a climbing line on all take downs?

[treesquirrel]

At a recent seminar I attended we were discussing cutting in the tree and it was brought to my attention that the new ANSI would require pre-installed climbing lines as one of the two TIP for work aloft especially when running a saw.

Now, previously the two points could be the flipline and a second lanyard of approved design but not necessarily a fixed climbing line.

75 percent of my removals are pines, poles with limbs basically. In the time it takes to pre install the climbing line I will have flipped up with my flip line and secondary lanyard and limbed and topped almost an entire average sized pine around here.

If I pre install a fixed line in every tree I will not be able to price my work at the level where I will actually get the work. Yes, someone is going to come on here and make the argument that having no pre installed line makes an arial rescue a body recovery. I think that is a way overblown statement.

In trees where I need to move about a lot to trim or remove a spreading crown this is of course a different story.

Is ANSI an overbearing guide of cover your a$$ details for the insurance industry or is it really looking out for our well being?

What do you think? I want to hear from the pro's and not a bunch of quotes from insurance industry statistics.

 

[Magnum783]

I agree with you. I do a lot of pines just like what you are talking about. I don't think you need to install a line unless you need to go out on a limb or something of that sort. Yes with a much more spreading tree a line is then needed but not of these pines you refer to. Now what I do is flipline up but before I make a cut I usually flip a rope on a good solid limb above me. Just what I do, but I too am waiting to hear from the pros.
Jared

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I'd like to see the paragraph for that requirement.

I will often use an overhead TIP on excurrent trees, especially with larger diameter. Find a stout limb with good angle and tie in then I can move around the trunk faster with better stability.

Sometimes 2 fliplines is the best way to go, and jsut work your way up the trunk.

Sometimes working up one face of the tree, leaving limbs on the back 2/3 or so will work better. I find this works well with spindly trees, keeping the limbs on for mass dampening, or protection from other limbs falling on a fence or other target. Other times a line set in an adjacent tree works well. I find this best when I can dump big chunks and I can rap down the trunk faster then a down limb on gaffs.

When I was a kid, combat dismount was cool, but gaffing out and dropping 6 ft or more does not appeal to me any more.

Over all, I find that taking a few minutes to set an overhead TIP will make the job easier and more comfortable on most jobs.

 

[clearance]

Thats one of the dorkiest things I have heard of, and I have heard a few, like starting a saw with the handle between your legs, chinstraps. etc. I have cut down many pines, I climb up with my steelcore around the tree cutting branches as I go. When I can, I dump the top and then climb down, cutting off logs, big chunks or firewood sized pieces. My rope usually stay with me, coiled up.

On conifers there it is a rare day when you cannot just "strip and chunk", why make it harder? In this Province, climbing with a chainsaw using one rope (lanyard, scare strap, whatever) is allowed, as long as it is a steelcore. I have worked like this sawing down trees beside powerlines and residentially for years now, it has been done here for years and years. Keep it simple, be productive and be safe.

 

[newguy18]

i usually go up removal on spurs and one flip line but I ack my climbing line on my saddle in case I need to go out on a limb but for blocking down I do what Ekka does and tie a quick running bowline and use it as a second tie in point.Go ahead and chew me out for making my ascent on one tie in.

 

[fastbub]

I don't always. If I am doing pine poles like you said, I will install a line if there is room for me to drop the spar. I work my way to the top, pop out the top and then use my line to come down. Then I tie a running bowline, run it up the pole and pull the spar over. If I am going to chunk it down, I don't install a line and just use two lanyards like you indicated. For anything besides these type of trees, I always install a line just to make it easier to move around in the tree.

 

[reachtreeservi]

On pines I usually use two fliplines. One steelcore and one three strand that I put on when cutting. It's a hassle and alot of times I'm tempted to just use the steelcore to make time but I can't run the saw without 2 TIP. It's a mental thing with me. I do take a old climbing line up with me, one that I no longer use for a lifeline, clipped tp the back of my saddle, to run tools and saws up and down.

I do think an overhead TIP is the way to go on everything but conifers. And if I can rig one in a nearby adjacent tree (non-conifer) , then I will.
But I honestly don't want to clean all the sap off my climbing rope after every pine I do.

I think that for the most part, ANSI requirements are pretty reasonable and most are a good thing. I also think that ANSI is definitely about covering the insurance industries :censored: a$$.

Ultimately, the Man in the Field is responsible. And since You are the one responsible, You ought to be the one to decide how You want to run your Job!

 

[newguy18]

Ultimately, the Man in the Field is responsible. And since You are the one responsible, You ought to be the one to decide how You want to run your Job!

I couldn't agree with you more.When I'm climbing i'll do what i see fit for each job.

 

[treesquirrel]

I understood at this seminar that this new standard is coming soon so possibly the jury is still out on it.

That is one reason I wanted to start this discussion.

I know for a fact some of the instructors at the seminar are AS members who will hopefully chime in here.

I'm all about reasonable standards but this seems a stretch. Next thing will be that no work can be performed aloft unless from a bucket truck.

We need to exercise maximum personal responsibility and keep the detailed/dictated standards at a reasonable level.

Like someone said above, I find most ANSI rules very realistic but this one seems a bit far reaching. I'd like its feasibility severely debated before becoming gospel.

 

[underwor]

On evergreens, mostly spruce here, I use the double flipline method, both up and down. The second flipline is my eyespliced climbing line with a pigtail, which works exactly like a normal flipline with a lot more adjustment capability. I usually leave some stubs on the way up, so that I can stand on them more comfortably than on the spurs all the time. This allows for a grip for the extra long climbing line on the way down as I drop to my next point of cut. Also allows a quick descent when I am down to the point where I can flop the log and leaves a line in the tree if I need to give it a little pull.

When I visited Russia, I noticed that most of them climbed on a long lanyard that could be cinched around the tree and used as a support to limb walk if needed. Also, it did allow for a rapid descent from all but the tallest trees.

 

[RedlineIt]

On a straight spar removal like a Douglas Fir, an overhead tie-in is nothing but in my way as I cut and remove branches on the way up, whether I am rigging them down or not. (My call.)

At some point, I will dump the top, whether I rig it down or not. (My call.)

OK, so now where is my overhead tie-in? It's on the ground, and headed for the chipper if my groundies are worth their salt.

So, I'm still as high off the ground as I was before, still operating a chainsaw, which will only increase in size, weight, and displacement as I come down, and my overhead TIP is oatmeal in the back of the truck.

It is not only useless to make regulations which cannot be followed, it leads to a disdain for regulations which can be followed.




RedlineIt

 

[joesawer]

On a straight spar removal like a Douglas Fir, an overhead tie-in is nothing but in my way as I cut and remove branches on the way up, whether I am rigging them down or not. (My call.)

At some point, I will dump the top, whether I rig it down or not. (My call.)

OK, so now where is my overhead tie-in? It's on the ground, and headed for the chipper if my groundies are worth their salt.

So, I'm still as high off the ground as I was before, still operating a chainsaw, which will only increase in size, weight, and displacement as I come down, and my overhead TIP is oatmeal in the back of the truck.

It is not only useless to make regulations which cannot be followed, it leads to a disdain for regulations which can be followed.




RedlineIt

Good post.
I for one will not waste my time with an tip if I don't need it or can't use it, no matter what ANSI or OSHA rules are. Unfortunately many of my tree cutting practices are in violation of rules, but I can demonstrate the greater safety of my practices.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It is not only useless to make regulations which cannot be followed, it leads to a disdain for regulations which can be followed.

I do agree with that part.

My point is that there are other ways of skinning a tree.

I suppose most of you will onehand the saw on most of the cuts too as you hold on and toss. :deadhorse:

Once again a person is an idiot for not doing it one way.

I also think that ANSI is definitely about covering the insurance industries

The ANSI Z-133 board is made of of tree industry representatives; people from Arbormaster, Wright, Asplund, TCoT, etc... They are made with the view of saving the employees from irresponsible employers. Some of the rules that seem more silly come from the horse trading needed to get the good ones in there. The big companies want CYA rules in there to keep the lesser trained people from causing them big losses.

If more people (me included) would have read through the proposed redraft, then maybe this would not have made it through after public commentary. In fact Guy M. posted a few excerpts for comment here.

We had our chance, so why itch and moan about it now?

 

[tree md]

That sounds ridicules to me. I do preinstall a rope in all of my trim jobs but removals??? Give me a break.

TS, I spent several years taking down those GA pines. I agree, preinstalling a rope in those trees is a huge waste of time.

 

[oldirty]

probably the only time i would preset a line ona takedown is if i had a good tie in point in another tree above the one i am working in. and that would only happen if i didnt like wood i am about to work. dead, punky or whatever.

if its a take down spike and flipline up and use your rope to tie in above you if you are thinking you are going to need to un clip the flip. other than that spike away, its a takedown.




oldirty

 

[D Mc]

I'd like to see the paragraph for that requirement.

So would I. I would also like to know how you get informed on the "public comment periods" before these things become set.

I will tell you what I use on most removals. I use two 3/4" flip lines with hip Prusik adjusters. My climbing line is coiled and set on the left hip, saw on the right. When I am doing a large removal, the last thing I want is my climbing line buried under tons of branches. I also don't want my climbing line snagged by a large branch on its way down. Those of you who have experienced this know what I mean.

I have preset high lines on some removals (never say never) and will always try to set a separate line on a questionable or hazardous removal. But to have it mandated as SOP would be mistake. There is no easier way to spur out than to take your weight off your flip line and spurs and transfer it to your high line.

It has been my observation that people who routinely require high lines for removals are not comfortable on their spurs.

D Mc

 

[rbtree]

I never use two fliplines. My always prerigged climb line acts as a second lanyard and can be switched to side D-Rings if desired.

Depending on the work required, and tree size, I will preinstall a climb or lowering line in an excurrent or decurrent tree. It is often easier to enter a tree via a climb line. And it's convenient to have a preset lowering line, though that would usually be rigged through a natural crotch.
On easy trees requiring little or no rigging, I'll just climb them....and advance a climb line or lowering line as I go, as and if needed.

For blocking down a stem, the safest method is to use a choked lifeline...or even better, an adjustable false crotch, through which the lifeline is run. Thus, you stay put in the event of a slip or spur kickout, and a quick exit is facilitated, in case of injury, or stinging beasties. And, should the stem split apart, the false crotch setup will prevent being pinned to the trunk.

Let's hope those developing new ANSI guidelines rethink such a restrictive and unnecssary rule.

 

[treesquirrel]

The standard as I know it is...

"Arborists shall use a second point of attachment (work-positioning lanyard or double-crotched rope) when operating chain saws in a tree, unless the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by using a second point of attachment while operating chain saws in that particular situation."

A new statement is...

There are some significant changes in the area of connections for climbers. Carabiners used in securing the arborist climbing line and/or the work-positioning lanyard to the arborist climbing saddle shall be of the self-closing positive-locking type, with a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds. Rope snaps used in climbing now must be the self-closing, locking type (as opposed to simply self-closing) with a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds.

A few more.............

* Clothing and footwear appropriate to the known job hazards shall be approved by the employer and worn by the employee.
* Chain-saw-resistant leg protection shall be worn while operating a chain saw during ground operations.
* Training shall be provided in emergency response procedures appropriate and applicable to the work to be performed.
* Line clearance shall not be performed during adverse weather conditions such as thunderstorms, high winds, and snow and ice storms.
* Qualified line-clearance arborists and qualified line-clearance arborist trainees performing line clearance in the aftermath of a storm or under similar conditions shall be trained in the special hazards associated with this type of work.
* Line-clearance operations shall be suspended when storm work or emergency conditions develop involving energized electrical conductors. Electrical system owners/operators shall be notified immediately.
* Arborists, workers and mechanics shall not, under any circumstances, reach into the infeed hopper when the cutter disc or rotary drum or feed rollers are moving.


Anyway, I cannot find anywhere this new rule as it was mentioned at the seminar in print therefore I imagine we have some time to voice ourselves.

 

[treesquirrel]

Ahah

I think this may be the larvae from which the comment was made....

The Standard introduces the concept of being “secured,” describing the arborist who is safeguarded from unintended movement by a climbing system that is attached to the arborist and connected to a tree or other stable support. Examples of being secured include but are not limited to: being tied in, using a work-positioning lanyard, being on belay, or using a Prusik loop or ascenders while ascending.

The key word here seems to be "climbing system" which I would interpret as the SRT or DRT. The work positioning lanyard is mentioned however so it may be that the instructor at the seminar has his own ideas about what is being considered.

 

[Blinky]

I've never pre-installed a line on pines, very seldom do I pre-install a line on any tree I climb with gaffs. I use my lifeline as a second lanyard until I reach my high point.