Falling pics 11/25/09

[Metals406]

"On a windy day in July a woodcutter discarded a smoking cigarette in the Targhee National Forest, less than 200 yards west of the park. This was the start of the North Fork Fire, which entered Yellowstone within hours. It burned over 400,000 acres in the park and threatened West Yellowstone, Madison, Norris, Canyon, Tower, Mammoth, and Old Faithful. On September 7th, a firestorm raged toward the Old Faithful area, nearly incinerating the entire site. Instead, at the last minute, the wind shifted slightly, blowing the body of the fire just south of Old Faithful’s main developed area.


Crown Fire by West Thumb in Yellowstone
A fire that started by Flagg Ranch just outside the south entrance started by a power line that was blown down by 60 mile per hour winds, in this single day this fire burned ten thousand acres."

=============

The above fires were not let burn.
There is no smoking woodcutters and/or powerlines are natural provision in any national fire policy.
Several lightning fires, that also were not part of a let burn package, burned together or into the fires above or let burn fires and increased the overall acreage.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The point I'd like to make, is that in a fire ecosystem like Yellowstone, large fires cannot be stopped from occurring.
If one delays this inevitable cycle then more fuel is built up and the resulting fires are more destructive. Where this is the worst is at higher elevations because recoveries often happen in slow motion.

=============

There is more to this cycle stuff.
Most of the 3 million acres that burned in the 1910 fires, which were much more significant than Yellowstone, reburned in the 1930's. Those snags mentioned above will fall over and combined with the new growth make a superb fuel bed for the second round of fires THAT WILL HAPPEN.

Usually life is in three's:
1) Insect or disease,
2) First Fire,
3) Second Fire.

Then we start over. Not now.

=============

Where we have screwed up is with this Euro idea of stopping the evil fire.
By doing that we have actually increased the destructive level of these fires by 'nuking' the soil with too much heat for a decent recovery between stages.

Fire fighters make things worse for fire fighters.

============

Told you those stories to tell you this one:

Get ready for Yellowstone to burn again sometime in the next dozen years because its time for #3.
Regardless of our fire suppression policy its going to happen.

Yup, fuel is allowed to build to a point where you don't have 1 minute fuels, or 5 minute fuels. . . You have buildup like you just loaded the stove for the night.

The intense heat is very destructive, instead of a cleaning effect that it should have.

In the next few years, there will have to be some serious pre-commercial thinning in the North Fork of the Flathead. The amount of lodgepole seed that was kicked off by the Moose Fire is ridiculous; literally trees every inch or so apart.

If nothing is done to mechanically remove the saplings, another dry year will invite another catastrophic fire.

I don't give a rip if it's a park, reserve, preserve, or wilderness area. . . Logging should be allowed, or fires lit every few years to limit fuel buildup.

Since most of these places are managed by jackasses, fuel will be allowed to build, and fires will be super destructive. The only answer they have is to do minimal urban interface remediation -- which won't be enough to shut down a barn burner.

More logging, less talking. . . Get'r done.

 

[nw axe man]

The worst days of Yellowstone were Cold Fronts.
The 1910 fires, South Canyon in 1994, the big burns of the late 1800's were all cold fronts. The wildland fires that killed the most fire fighters and citizenry in the US were cold fronts.

Non fire fighters think that temperature is the most influential weather item on fire behavior.

Not true.

Humidity is the most influential and combine a good dry cold front with its wind you get September 7th, 1988.

Most summer/early fall cold fronts should be thought of as dry fronts.
That is from a weather/fire behavior manual put together about 50 years ago.

========

Next story.
I never seen so many cold fronts as this late winter-spring here in central oregon. I know that NO ONE can predict fire seasons, so take that with a big grain of salt.
(Trivia: the 1909-1910 winter was unusually wet with a high snowpack.)

I never seen so many cold fronts as this late winter-spring here in central oregon. I know that NO ONE can predict fire seasons, so take that with a big grain of salt.
(Trivia: the 1909-1910 winter was unusually wet with a high snowpack.)
Have to agree with that. I just spent all last week in Prineville on Hwy 26 working with the Ochoco NF guys. Had snow in our camp 3 days and Tuesday it rained harder than it ever has on me in 25 years of going down there. Like an old timer who worked on the Ochoco said one time, "It never rains on the Ochoco."

 

[forestryworks]

More logging, less talking. . . Get'r done.

Yup.

 

[Gologit]

Yup, fuel is allowed to build to a point where you don't have 1 minute fuels, or 5 minute fuels. . . You have buildup like you just loaded the stove for the night.





I don't give a rip if it's a park, reserve, preserve, or wilderness area. . . Logging should be allowed, or fires lit every few years to limit fuel buildup.

Since most of these places are managed by jackasses, fuel will be allowed to build, and fires will be super destructive. The only answer they have is to do minimal urban interface remediation -- which won't be enough to shut down a barn burner.

More logging, less talking. . . Get'r done.

Well said.

 

[madhatte]

Turns out one environmental panic might just override the last panic.

Crazy.

Ain't that the way of it?

 

[bitzer]

Well, I don't have anything intelligent to say regarding fires other than I like em.

It got awful windy at the end of the day today. Real nice gusts blowing across the lay got me putting a wedge in on the far side for good measure. Had a nice lightning crack above my head as this one started to tip and then the downpour.

View attachment 185912View attachment 185913View attachment 185914View attachment 185915

 

[forestryworks]

Hey bitzer, nice.

Looks like white pine?

 

[forestryworks]

Final

Here is the final picture taken at the Park I did the hazard tree falling at.

Standing in front of the biggest tree in the Park. Was a fun time there.

 

[madhatte]

Why would I:

do this:

to this?

Obviously, for this:

(it's all about the disease, y'all)

By the by, if you know what this is:

then, you are obviously from Western Washington.

 

[smokechase II]

Falling Pics

Disclaimer;
I just found this on a fire fighter site. (This was at a Doug Dent training/certification on the San Bernardino National Forest in California)

http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2011/lessons-learned/aar-close-call-escaping-the-stump-v-good.pdf

For the good of the order - I have seen once where a slightly bigger piece out of the center of a Loblolly snag (aka southern or slash pine) was thrown back to the stump by a relatively small oak tree. That faller, Mark Gibbons of the Redmond Jumpers, had exited briskly w/saw and we only had to restart his heart once. We did not have any idea that was about to happen or possible. A thought for anyone could be do everything you can to avoid dropping into oak or similar strength hardwoods because they can bend a long ways, not break, and actually throw very large widowmakers back even past the stump. It is not inconceivable that the second or third sway of the hardwood could be what throws said widowmaker, so keep looking longer than the rabble around you.

==============

That fire fighter chat site, highly regulated and no fun, is at:

They Said

 

[slowp]

Hey Nate, Where'd you get the Yardbirds decal?

 

[forestryworks]

Disclaimer;
I just found this on a fire fighter site. (This was at a Doug Dent training/certification on the San Bernardino National Forest in California)

http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2011/lessons-learned/aar-close-call-escaping-the-stump-v-good.pdf

For the good of the order - I have seen once where a slightly bigger piece out of the center of a Loblolly snag (aka southern or slash pine) was thrown back to the stump by a relatively small oak tree. That faller, Mark Gibbons of the Redmond Jumpers, had exited briskly w/saw and we only had to restart his heart once. We did not have any idea that was about to happen or possible. A thought for anyone could be do everything you can to avoid dropping into oak or similar strength hardwoods because they can bend a long ways, not break, and actually throw very large widowmakers back even past the stump. It is not inconceivable that the second or third sway of the hardwood could be what throws said widowmaker, so keep looking longer than the rabble around you.

==============

That fire fighter chat site, highly regulated and no fun, is at:

They Said

Wonder why the oak wasn't cut?

I cut a lot of hardwoods out of my way when I did my hazard tree work for that very reason. Bunch of slingshots just waiting.

Or they'll be springpoles when the tree does lay out.

 

[madhatte]

Hey Nate, Where'd you get the Yardbirds decal?

Why, at Yard Birds, of course!

Turns out there's a movement afoot to restore the "sitting bird" in the parking lot and they're selling stickers and T-shirts and stuff to raise the cash. I'm a sucker for Yard Birds stuff since I grew up in Centralia.

There's a "Birdfest" there June 25, I think, with live music including members of the -- get this! -- The Ventures! -- as well as (I'm pretty sure) a viewing of Jake The Alligator Man from Marsh's Free Museum in Long Beach. Oughta be a hoot and a holler.

 

[slowp]

That sounds like a worthy celebration to go to. I miss the missiles that were in the parking lot. That was my favorite store, and the former large sized Sunbirds a close second. We used to get the $5 German Army wool pants there and sometimes the $5 rainpants.


I still give the downsized Sunbirds a lot of business.

I am a Lewis County native!

 

[madhatte]

Yard Birds was the best local institution ever. Sunbirds was cool, too, especially the disorderly layout. Chehalis Yard Birds was king, The Oly Yard Birds was OK, the Shelton was one a shadow of its brethren.

 

[dave k]

Been doing storm damage clean up on a local estate so a bulk of it is on the ground ! but had a few Ash to fell along this boundry wall. Not big but on a sunny day in a great place who cares, the wet and cold will be back soon enough !!

 

[Sport Faller]

other than the 60's supergroup, what the pooh is Yardbirds?

 

[forestryworks]

other than the 60's supergroup, what the pooh is Yardbirds?

Yard Bird Statues, Chehalis, Washington

 

[Metals406]

Been doing storm damage clean up on a local estate so a bulk of it is on the ground ! but had a few Ash to fell along this boundry wall. Not big but on a sunny day in a great place who cares, the wet and cold will be back soon enough !!

Damn, Ireland is pretty!!

 

[madhatte]

Yard Bird Statues, Chehalis, Washington

Here I am inside of the thing:

and outside: