File Gauge

[Diet Ginger Beer]

I've always made fine sawdust not chips. I don't think it's the quality of my sharpening....I was once complimented on my sharpening by a Stihl dealer (but maybe he says that to all the guys).
So on the basis that it wasn't my sharpening, I just ignored the issue as un-fixable. Thing is, the oil laden fine dust is a pain to clean out of the saw.

I understand that the incredibly hard Eucalypts which I have need lower rakers than would normally be the case for regular hardwood, without going too low so that the thing becomes a bucking bronco.
Researching file gauges, it seemed that I needed a better gauge than the standard one which came with the saw. I think that means a progressive type.
So I got this from Stihl. It's marked hard and soft wood but I think I saw somewhere that the softwood setting means it gets filed lower than the hardwood.
My question is, should I use the hardwood or softwood setting bearing in mind the type of timber I am dealing with? thanks.

 

[trains]

I use the hardwood setting on RM chain in dry or green euc. from 1/4p to 404.
Also round off the front of the raker guide after setting its depth.

Post up some pics of your chain after you have filed it.
I dont agree that you need lower rakers on harder euc, my experience has been the opposite cutting dead dry greybox, sugar gum etc.

I prefer a smoother cutting chain, than a grabby one, speed is quicker on the smoother chain, as you can load up the power head and let it eat, where as if you go lower on the depth gauge, it stalls and bogs down the saw and slows you down.

fine tune to what you cut regularly from there.

 

[Diet Ginger Beer]

Post up some pics of your chain after you have filed it.

Just went out to shed and did the one tooth, but I'm usually reasonably consistent with my angles.
New chain, only 2 sharpenings so far.

 

[trains]

How did you sharpen that tooth, post up a pic of the guide / set up your using, very little hook on that, seems the file is held quite high.
even on hard wood, im using this amount of hook.
this is .404, looking for some 3/8 pics



Ok, here is some 3/8 semi carlton which works really well in dead dry euc, I used the husky roller guide to give me a higher file position and less hook, but still more than what your picture shows, unless its just a bad angle the pic was taken from.

 

[Diet Ginger Beer]

Standard TAFE procedure.....90 degrees to the bar, 30 degrees to the tooth (may be a bit off in the pic cos I'm having to hold the file and take the pic at the same time). I always watch both angles on every stroke and usually do 3 strokes per tooth, forwards only.

 

[trains]

can you post up some other pictures of the filed teeth, i have come across a few file plates that were not well stamped and held the file in the wrong spot.
And to confirm thats a 4.8mm file on your .325 guide ?

 

[Diet Ginger Beer]

How did you sharpen that tooth, post up a pic of the guide / set up your using, very little hook on that, seems the file is held quite high.
even on hard wood, im using this amount of hook.
this is .404, looking for some 3/8 pics

Ok, here is some 3/8 semi carlton which works really well in dead dry euc, I used the husky roller guide to give me a higher file position and less hook, but still more than what your picture shows, unless its just a bad angle the pic was taken from.

I was recently reading about sharpening a 404 chain (have a Makita 61cc with a 404) which I can barely lift. Oregon recommend a 3/8 file for a 404 chain (possibly because they don't make a 404 file size) whereas Stihl recommend a slightly larger file (cant remember size) for the 404.
The consensus of opinion that I could find seemed to prefer the smaller 3/8 for the 404 chain because you can gain a sharper hook. Others commented that a larger/thinner hook wears down the tooth more quickly. My point is, are you using a 3/8 file on a 404 chain because if so that his how you are getting the increased hook which I can't get with a 325 file on a 325 tooth.

 

[Diet Ginger Beer]

can you post up some other pictures of the filed teeth, i have come across a few file plates that were not well stamped and held the file in the wrong spot.
And to confirm thats a 4.8mm file on your .325 guide ?

In my pyjamas now so too cold to be out in shed filing teeth!
Can confirm all my teeth look like that one after filing.
Yes that's a 4.8mm file and that's how they look in the tooth...they fill the thing as in pic.
If you think I need a larger hook, I could perhaps go down a size to a 3/8lp file, which I have.

 

[trains]

In my pyjamas now so too cold to be out in shed filing teeth!
Can confirm all my teeth look like that one after filing.
Yes that's a 4.8mm file and that's how they look in the tooth...they fill the thing as in pic.
If you think I need a larger hook, I could perhaps go down a size to a 3/8lp file, which I have.

Ok, fair enough, we have lives beyond the internet.

yes, stihl uses a 5.2mm file, others use 5.5mm for 3/8, stihl uses 5.5 for 404.

I dont think the file size is a problem with your tooth shape, its its position, go higher, less hook, go too low, too much hook.

I did have a .325 guide, that was so poorly stamped, that I could not get the file down on the tooth properly, got a new guide, and file was correctly positioned and better tooth hook shape.
I also use other guides or a granberg file jig to custom shape chains depending on what I will be cutting, or how bad a chain is that I need to bring back.

you can also just free hand file, but I prefer guides as after cutting for a few hrs, my hands are too fatiuged to hold a file well, so the guide is very useful.

So when your able, post up a few more pics, including the file in the guide on the tooth, lets see if we can get your sharpening to produce good chips.



example of a different guide and how it affects the hook profile, see how the tooth has more hook (gap between tooth and file) and once the file is passed, will be less hook ?

chain yet to be sharpened.

 

[Diet Ginger Beer]

Bear in mind that this is a new file in a new chain. So it's a much tighter fit than with a used chain and file, so no room to adjust up or down. I will have a closer look at the guide clearance etc and get back to you tomorrow. From what I was reading it seems to be acceptable practice to go down a size of file on any chain, if you want more hook.

Is the increased size of hook the key to more chips less dust when cutting very hard and dense gum? It does seem a safer approach than the risk which comes from lowering the rakers even slightly more than is usual.

 

[trains]

The problem I had with my miss stamped guide was very noticeable on a new chain.
post up some better pics of the tooth, it could just be the angle it was taken, but it didnt look right.

yes, you can go down a file size, but I usually do that when the tooth is past 3/4 worn and the tooth height and size of the cutter is smaller than when new, I dont bother before that. Just moving the file up or down a bit will give you all the tooth shape options you need to begin with, if at all.

The pics I posted of the carlton chain work very well in dry gum, even tho its not got much hook, more hook is not necessarily the way to get bigger chips in dry gum, more hook usually means the edge goes dull much quicker.
What you want is a smooth cutting chain, throwing chips, and loading up the power head when it self feeds.

Lets keep to the basics, check the pics, and fine tune from there and not leap frog over things.

 

[Tony Mayhew]

From what I see on that Carlton chain is you are either extremely good at smoothing out that depth gage or its never been filed before! And as far back as the cutter tooth has been filed back you should have hit it at least twice by now! Guaranteed the reason you're making powdered sawdust enstead of chips ( or if you get really good at it, shavings! ) And your not supposed to have a point at the end of your tooth no matter what kind of wood you are cutting! When it is done correctly ( and to do that you will need to learn how to file by hand) you have to be able to feel the file removing metal as your first pass will be rough feeling and gets smoother with each stroke of the file. When it is done the file will pass through without feeling it grabbing at all!The key to it is practice , practice, practice! It's not about getting the same amount of strokes on each tooth as some will take more than others will to make the file pass through smooth and once i get it smooth i twist the file up under the top plate of the cutter until it is smooth under that as well! It's been my experience that when you think you have the file at a 25-30 degree angle you need to turn it back towards the tooth just a little bit more. And you should take a bright light and shine it on the front of the tooth and not see it have any shine from the light, if it shines anywhere around the sharp edge it needs more attention. Hope this helps you brother!

 

[Diet Ginger Beer]

From what I see on that Carlton chain.......

I'm a bit confused.....mine is the Stihl chain in the first picture, not the Carlton chain.

 

[trains]

From what I see on that Carlton chain is you are either extremely good at smoothing out that depth gage or its never been filed before! And as far back as the cutter tooth has been filed back you should have hit it at least twice by now! Guaranteed the reason you're making powdered sawdust enstead of chips ( or if you get really good at it, shavings! ) And your not supposed to have a point at the end of your tooth no matter what kind of wood you are cutting! When it is done correctly ( and to do that you will need to learn how to file by hand) you have to be able to feel the file removing metal as your first pass will be rough feeling and gets smoother with each stroke of the file. When it is done the file will pass through without feeling it grabbing at all!The key to it is practice , practice, practice! It's not about getting the same amount of strokes on each tooth as some will take more than others will to make the file pass through smooth and once i get it smooth i twist the file up under the top plate of the cutter until it is smooth under that as well! It's been my experience that when you think you have the file at a 25-30 degree angle you need to turn it back towards the tooth just a little bit more. And you should take a bright light and shine it on the front of the tooth and not see it have any shine from the light, if it shines anywhere around the sharp edge it needs more attention. Hope this helps you brother!

The carlton chain pics I posted has had plenty taken off the depth gauge, making the leading edge rounded smooths out the cut, and lessens the drag, its all small amounts, but it adds up.

the OP has stihl chain, I put up my pics for comparison and tooth shape from different angles showing you dont need a large amount of hook, but OP's first pic seemed to show an odd shaped cutter, so put up a pic of more hook for reference of a typical tooth shape, then put up the carlton to show what works well in dead dry euc.

We need better pics to see clearly the cutter's profile, and go from there, but the initial pic seemed like the file was in the wrong spot, and ive come across many file guides either bent, twisted, or not stamped right in the first place causing odd cutter shapes.

 

[Diet Ginger Beer]

I think I've worked out what has been happening.
I went out and looked at where I had been cutting yesterday with a new chain and the chips/dust are not nearly as small as is usual for me... not too bad considering it was very dry, very dense, very hard gum.

What I have never really been careful about is keeping my rakers to the right height....didn't know how critical it was until recently, so never really bothered with them that much. So whilst the chain may be sharpened ok, the rakers were too high and as the chain got older, the finer the dust I produced as the teeth got lower and the rakers stayed more or less the same. I also have to say that whenever I checked with the standard gauge, the rakes rarely if ever needed filing. Some say that the standard gauge is pretty useless.

Just wanted to check if the softwood setting on the progressive gauge means more is taken off the raker than the hardwood? Have you ever tried cutting dry gum using the softwood setting?
Thanks for your help Trains.

 

[trains]

Yep, quick reply, have to head out with family.

Tooth pics look good, better angle gives us a better idea of how its being shaped, thanks for putting them up, really helps in giving you helpful advice/ suggestions.
I use the hard setting with the FL series of progressive guides, even on green euc, for the timber I cut, the soft setting is way too aggressive unless your cutting pine which is like balsa wood.

 

[trains]

I think I've worked out what has been happening.
I went out and looked at where I had been cutting yesterday with a new chain and the chips/dust are not nearly as small as is usual for me... not too bad considering it was very dry, very dense, very hard gum.

What I have never really been careful about is keeping my rakers to the right height....didn't know how critical it was until recently, so never really bothered with them that much. So whilst the chain may be sharpened ok, the rakers were too high and as the chain got older, the finer the dust I produced as the teeth got lower and the rakers stayed more or less the same. I also have to say that whenever I checked with the standard gauge, the rakes rarely if ever needed filing. Some say that the standard gauge is pretty useless.

Just wanted to check if the softwood setting on the progressive gauge means more is taken off the raker than the hardwood? Have you ever tried cutting dry gum using the softwood setting?
Thanks for your help Trains.

Was going to pm you, but I dont think you have enough posts yet to do that.

Not trying to nit pick, but just to catch up to where your at re sharpening etc.
The pic you showed with the view showing the underside of the guide on the tooth, its not touching the front depth gauge.
Rest the guide on the tooth, and front depth gauge, to get the proper height of the file on the tooth.
I assume it probably moved when you took the photo, but ive seen some people just rest the guide on the tooth, and not bring it down to rest on the depth gauge when they sharpen, so like I said, just catching up to where your at, and the limits of trying to offer advice online like this require I dont assume your doing something you may or may not be aware of.

So how did the chain self feed in the cuts where you showed the chips ? did it load up the power head well without bogging it down, and let it sit at around 9k ?

Cheers and happy filing.

File when needed, to remove the damage, not just a few passes each time, sharpen it as much as it needs. If no damage, and just dulling, then do it early before it gets really dull, just keep it sharp, you put more wood in the trailer then.

 

[Diet Ginger Beer]

So how did the chain self feed in the cuts where you showed the chips ? did it load up the power head well without bogging it down, and let it sit at around 9k ?

Didn't bog but the MS250, well tuned with a sharp chain is at the limits of what it can do in this Mallee.
TBH I was thinking more about the saw still stalling after every cut despite having replaced the coil last week, which tested as failing.
Looks like a new carby. Couldn't seem to get it to tune without fluctuating, either.

 

[trains]

Didn't bog but the MS250, well tuned with a sharp chain is at the limits of what it can do in this Mallee.
TBH I was thinking more about the saw still stalling after every cut despite having replaced the coil last week, which tested as failing.
Looks like a new carby. Couldn't seem to get it to tune without fluctuating, either. Much use of the phrase "I'm so over this".
Note to self, don't just empty out the fuel from the saw at the end of winter, also run the saw until the fuel in the carby is all used up.
Getting to the stage where it would be cheaper to heat with electric with what this saw is costing me...well not really but it is turning into a money pit.

Yeah, its annoying, but you have plenty of experienced people behind you here, so apart from the time and frustration, you can end up with a running saw, and some better knowledge on diagnosis and fixing, so the future will be easier.
Missed the post on the 250's coil issues, have had plenty of things going on beyond the internet. What size bar you running on your 250 ?
In the end I match the bar length to the timber I need to cut, and then match the bar length to the power head so to speak.

if chain is correctly sharpened, and saw tuned right, you should be fine with what ever you cut, some timber is quicker than others.
Some mallee can be pretty hard, and often has quite a bit of dirt/ rocks in it, which is hard on chains, and is frustrating getting out the file often.
I had one limb down to cut up, only 20" or so in dia, 660 with 25" 3/8, it was full of dirt etc, one cut thru took 3 sharpens to get thru it, after that I pushed it aside, and went to cleaner wood.

Still back to the saw, if its surging/ fluctuating, often a carb clean, and service with new parts is a good start, check fuel line and filter too for cracks and condition.

Sounds like it could be fuel related issue, but check the easy basic things first, then start to look at the possibility of air leaks etc. But a step by step systematic approach is required, so you dont leap frog over the problem. Vintage engine repairs has some good vids on rebuilding carbs and tuning worth watching too.

 

[Diet Ginger Beer]

Yeah, its annoying,

My logs are never that big....probably about 300mm max, mostly less. I run an 18" bar which is the biggest allowed in the spec.
I never cut logs or parts of logs which touch the ground due to bar sprocket binding issues from very gritty ground. So the logs are generally reasonably 'clean' of anything which might affect the sprocket or chain.