First experience with bad fuel

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yeah we have seen ms880s with the piston crown burt down to the ring.If the ethanol evaporates you are left with low octane fuel which is more likely to cause detonation.Have also seen cutquicks and 660`s dead due to stale fuel and it dont take long with right conditions
 
Madsen's has a webpage devoted to fuel.
Some of today's fuel doesn't stay blended once it is mixed with oil. As mixed fuel ages (and gets exposure to moisture) it may separate. When this occurs, even shaking the container does not reblend it. The result is a portion of fuel inside a saw's tank with no oil in it. Don't use mixed fuel if it is over six weeks old. Tests show that as the mix ages, the oil is less likely to stay suspended in the fuel, even if agitated.

http://www.madsens1.com/saw fuelmix.htm
 
I am lucky; in MN a few selected stations have an "off-road" pump delivering non-E gas.

A couple of years ago I dumped the stale mix out of two saws and a string trimmer into my rototiller. It didn't run very good, but it got the work done. I shut down and went in for supper and when I was finishing up later (with a now cooled down motor) I noticed occasional puffs of smoke or steam (it was cool, maybe 45 deg).

That was my impetus to go to the straight non-E gas. The tiller has large enough passages to probably pass some water, and that's where the steam came from. My saws and trimmer probably don't.

Back in my snowmobiling days, it was common to run sleds with no more than a velocity stack on the carb. Of course, the engine could ingest anything that came its way, and occasionally did. The most common was snow. Snow could, and did cause engine damage: snowflakes hitting hot surfaces inside could erupt into steam, steam cleaning those surfaces, and occasionally dislodging carbon on piston tops...a partly dislodged flake of carbon could glow red or even yellow and now you have a semi-diesel with about 40 degrees of ignition advance. Soon after, a hole in your piston.

If a saw carb was to pass pure water, or nearly pure water, I'd expect the same thing.
 
Storing your gas in a shed filled with nice dry wood works well, because it tends to soak up the moisture before the gas attempts to.

I have been storing my gas in the wood shed, where all of my seasoned, dried, split wood stays, for 5 years and not once have we had that problem.

The saws also stay there as well. I really do think it has allot to do with where it is stored, and how often it is used.
 
Sealed fuel cans (No Spill) solve 95% of the problems. Keeps moisture out and additives in. So simple, yet few can grasp the principle. I see pro's saw everyday with corrosion in carb. Especially on the pump side, and gas cans in the back of the truck with open spouts. I tell them again and again. It's OK though, I like a 10 day backlog. Everyone should stop whining like little girls. See what's going on in the Gulf lately. I personally wish the manufacturers would catch up so we could run E85 (sugar of course)
 
stihl86 said:
Sealed fuel cans (No Spill) solve 95% of the problems. Keeps moisture out and additives in. So simple, yet few can grasp the principle. I see pro's saw everyday with corrosion in carb. Especially on the pump side, and gas cans in the back of the truck with open spouts. I tell them again and again. It's OK though, I like a 10 day backlog. Everyone should stop whining like little girls. See what's going on in the Gulf lately. I personally wish the manufacturers would catch up so we could run E85 (sugar of course)
Click to expand...

Common no-spill cans are the problem. They don't seal very well. I live a dry climate, it can run less then 25% humidity during the summer time. With so called no-spill sealed gas cans. I can see a accumulate of water within a week or so. And that is stored in my garage. Two years ago when we where forced to over to 10% ethanol for 85-86 octane and 5% ethanol for 91-92 octane. I bought 10 gal for winter storage. I treated the fuel a new bottle of stible fuel stabilizer. This was stored in a my garage where in near goes below 50 degrees. The fuel was stored in common blitz epa 5 gallon tanks. After 4 months of storage, there was a ton of water in the tanks.

Ethanol is a dead end for the USA. Taking feed stock and making a fuel / fuel additives that takes more energy to make then you get out of it. Just does not make any sense. For countrys like Brazil, gasohol make total sense! All the leftover byproduct of sugar cain production works out great for them. It makes the production of gasohol feasible and economically advantageous.

My .02

Mike
 
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And all that water is coming from where? The way you explain it, it was either already in the fuel, or your can wasn't sealed. Yet it let in moisture, which didn't exist to begin with? I find the "No Spill" cans excellent. All the issues are fixed (except the pressure release when pushing the button). Ethanol isn't the answer, diesel is. But ethanol (sugar) can help. BP should just buy Nicaragua while they still have some money. It could end the poverty in that country, because our gluttony will never end. Everyone can work the sugar fields so I have fuel to waste:angrysoapbox:. That's how god wants it.
 
stihl86 said:
And all that water is coming from where? The way you explain it, it was either already in the fuel, or your can wasn't sealed. Yet it let in moisture, which didn't exist to begin with? I find the "No Spill" cans excellent. All the issues are fixed (except the pressure release when pushing the button). Ethanol isn't the answer, diesel is. But ethanol (sugar) can help. BP should just buy Nicaragua while they still have some money. It could end the poverty in that country, because our gluttony will never end. Everyone can work the sugar fields so I have fuel to waste:angrysoapbox:. That's how god wants it.
Click to expand...




I sure hope they have forced labor down there, especially for the kids, I like having fuel to waste!
Don't ever lose sight of the fact that "our gluttony" is the primary driving economic force for a LARGE part of the rest of the world!!!


Mike
 
I had to go with my truck a few days ago and pick up my wife and her scooter. She had filled up on a humid day and I think the fuel coming out of the pump has already phase separated. The scooter's fuel tank was so full of water, there was a very distinct layer in the bottom of my Ratio-Rite when I drained what was in the carb. I had to drain and flush the fuel tank, lines and carb 3x before the fuel was no longer hazy. The thing would start and idle, but you couldn't give it any throttle.

I had a car sitting in the driveway for 3 months, even though I used stabilizer in the fuel, it started to run like $#!^ I put two cans of Sea Foam in it, topped it off and drove about 30 miles with the car running like cow dung until the water had run through the system.

With ethanol, you have to use up all the fuel within a few weeks or you might have problems. These troubles rarely occurred before the ethanol days.
 
DougNH said:
I had to go with my truck a few days ago and pick up my wife and her scooter. She had filled up on a humid day and I think the fuel coming out of the pump has already phase separated. The scooter's fuel tank was so full of water, there was a very distinct layer in the bottom of my Ratio-Rite when I drained what was in the carb. I had to drain and flush the fuel tank, lines and carb 3x before the fuel was no longer hazy. The thing would start and idle, but you couldn't give it any throttle.

I had a car sitting in the driveway for 3 months, even though I used stabilizer in the fuel, it started to run like $#!^ I put two cans of Sea Foam in it, topped it off and drove about 30 miles with the car running like cow dung until the water had run through the system.

With ethanol, you have to use up all the fuel within a few weeks or you might have problems. These troubles rarely occurred before the ethanol days.
Click to expand...

Ahyuh,,taint like them big undergound tanks got funnels pointin up to gatha the rain watah..seems like sumthin called "condensation" takes effect whetha container sealed or not..durn plastic can keeps shrinkin when it's cold and swelling up fat like my sister when it get out in the hot..
thet ethenol and moisture thing beyond a normal persons ability to cipher out..
mebe i put one of my cuzins female absorbent things there in the can to absorb the watah :)
 
roncoinc said:
Ahyuh,,taint like them big undergound tanks got funnels pointin up to gatha the rain watah..seems like sumthin called "condensation" takes effect whetha container sealed or not..durn plastic can keeps shrinkin when it's cold and swelling up fat like my sister when it get out in the hot..
thet ethenol and moisture thing beyond a normal persons ability to cipher out..
mebe i put one of my cuzins female absorbent things there in the can to absorb the watah :)
Click to expand...

If you do that it, it might be even more moody! :monkey:
 
My guess is that the Leidenfrost effect is taking place inside the cylinder as the water is being sent through. When cool water meets hot metal it tends to pool and float on the metal and not vaporize like you think it would. I'd assume the water isn't vaporizing till it gets agitated by to the spark arrestor or absorbed by carbon buildup in exhaust. This would cause intermittent back pressure as the water vaporizes and expands. Not to mention droplets of water don't make for very even compression in the cylinder.

video of water on a hot pan
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2260391524160206332#
 
vincem77 said:
My guess is that the Leidenfrost effect is taking place inside the cylinder as the water is being sent through. When cool water meets hot metal it tends to pool and float on the metal and not vaporize like you think it would. I'd assume the water isn't vaporizing till it gets agitated by to the spark arrestor or absorbed by carbon buildup in exhaust. This would cause intermittent back pressure as the water vaporizes and expands. Not to mention droplets of water don't make for very even compression in the cylinder.

video of water on a hot pan
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2260391524160206332#
Click to expand...

Does this explain why when you are driving down the road and come to a stop and the exhaust pipe from the car in front of you has water pouring out of it. Does that car have water in the gas - I've always wondered about that?
 
7oaks said:
Does this explain why when you are driving down the road and come to a stop and the exhaust pipe from the car in front of you has water pouring out of it. Does that car have water in the gas - I've always wondered about that?
Click to expand...

The water coming out of an exhaust pipe is most likely condensation in the exhaust from when the car was off. The exhaust is shaded by the car during the day and takes a while to warm up from a cool night. While its warming up it collects water like a cold beer on a hot day. Once you start the car it gets sprayed out by the exhaust gas.

This temperature change is also what causes the condensation in the gas tank to bring this back on topic.
Now you've got me thinking of a beer on this hot day. :cheers:
 
I've posted many times about the poor quality of fuels these days. My motorcycle ran horribly this spring until I filled the tank a time or two with fresh gas. Premix only lasts about a month before it makes my Echo string trimmer run funky, my blower dosen't mind as much. Weird.

I use 89 octane at 10% alcohol and I use Bailey's synthetic oil, I've never seen any seperation but it DOES collect water quickly even in a brand new EPA style can.
 

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