Grinding down depth rakers. Bad idea?

[Guido Salvage]

Now I am looking(actually have been for awhile) for a log splitter. Have my eye on a North Star 22 ton at Northern Tool. Splitting some of the bigger oak(24-28") really wears a guy out with a maul.

What type of maul are you using? I have been splitting with a Sotz Monster Maul for the past 25+ years and suspect I am just as fast as a home grade log splitter. I plan to cut a little wood on Wednesday (24" oak) and maybe I can shoot a little video of the action. Of course, once I got past 50 it was a little harder on the body.

Too bad Sotz went out of business. I have some sort of copy of the Monster Maul (painted red) but it just does not have the same feel. Sotz made great stuff as witnessed by the response I got when I listed my new in the box barrel stove kit earlier this year.

 

[Anthony_Va.]

I agree a maul is faster in straight grain wood. But try busting osage orange with a maul. it can be done but you'll know you done it in the morning.

I'll take the splitter.

 

[woodyman]

My current saw to use is a Sachs Dolmar 120 super/si frankensaw, I have my chains sharpened nicely, rakers trimmed to around .035" and I have too much engine RPM and not enough chips coming off the bar to make me happy, I feel like I am wasting power, so I am once again going to experiment with taking the rakers down a bit deeper. But not all the way. And I limit how many cords I'm cutting these days. I'm no spring chicken any more. I sure am thankful for Vicodin these days .......

What are we talking for bar length?A 36" bar in 30" wood is going to throw the chips good I would think.

 

[Guido Salvage]

I agree a maul is faster in straight grain wood. But try busting osage orange with a maul. it can be done but you'll know you done it in the morning. I'll take the splitter.

True, but this is mostly straight grain oak with few knots so once I do the initial split it only takes one swing to get my stove size pieces. The only time I fooled with osage orange was to get some sections for a friend of mine who hand makes knives. He wanted some for handles (and he said it is easier to work with than ironwood).

 

[kspakland]

21" bar, and it DOES cut good, but I can see and feel a LOT of the saw's potential being wasted, which translates to spending more time out in the field cutting and less time at home resting and playing on the computer or doing other projects.

 

[woodyman]

True, but this is mostly straight grain oak with few knots so once I do the initial split it only takes one swing to get my stove size pieces. The only time I fooled with osage orange was to get some sections for a friend of mine who hand makes knives. He wanted some for handles (and he said it is easier to work with than ironwood).

I once split 4 cords of straight grain oak with a 3 1/2lb double bladed axe:jawdrop:With no knots that stuff is a breeze.The hard part is bending over to get the pieces ready for the next swing.

 

[wigglesworth]

The hard part is bending over to get the pieces ready for the next swing.

:agree2:

 

[maico490]

21" bar, and it DOES cut good, but I can see and feel a LOT of the saw's potential being wasted, which translates to spending more time out in the field cutting and less time at home resting and playing on the computer or doing other projects.

Best bet would be a bigger sprocket to get the chain speed up and stay within recommended limits on the raker depth.

 

[stevohut]

What are we talking for bar length?A 36" bar in 30" wood is going to throw the chips good I would think.

I don't know much but I know it is best to run semi or full skip tooth chain on a bar longer then 28". If your cutting big wood with a full comp chain it's gonna have a hard time pulling those chips from the kerf because it's such a far distance for the teeth to carry them. It's gonna choke itself, kind of like mowing the lawn after the grass catcher is already full.

 

[Lonedrake]

I am done with the maul...at least for the bigger stuff. I have a 6 pounder and an eight pounder. I prefer the six pounder. Speed is important. The oaks grew in an area that had been thinned out....so lots of big knots. The stuff under 12 inches that was green and straight I barely had to swing to split it.

The splitter will allow me to retain some energy so I can do more work. Just got done seeding a new lawn(after I cleared the trees,stumps etc) which is a little over an acre. Finishing up on a 45' X 45' garden. Plus I am building a couple of large ponds and clearing some other spots to put in some food plots.

 

[kspakland]

If you want a REAL treat, try to split Arizona oak with an axe or a maul .....It's knotty, twisted grain, and fights every step of the way. Since I don't have a hydraulic splitter, I usually end up just cutting the pieces lengthwise with the saw.
And I can't see the need for a bigger sprocket on my saw, the chain has plenty of speed as it is.
I compare it to the stroker engine in my truck going down the highway, running plenty of rpm but not working hard, just loafing along. If I'm going to be burning that much fuel anyway, might as well get some work out of it.

 

[maico490]

And I can't see the need for a bigger sprocket on my saw, the chain has plenty of speed as it is.
I compare it to the stroker engine in my truck going down the highway, running plenty of rpm but not working hard, just loafing along. If I'm going to be burning that much fuel anyway, might as well get some work out of it.

If it has "plenty of power" it is capable of spinning the chain faster. You say you want faster cuts so with a fixed engine rpm more chain speed is the only practical and safe way of getting the desired result.

 

[arborjockey]

one wack
good ol fir

 

[pioneerguy600]

If you want a REAL treat, try to split Arizona oak with an axe or a maul .....It's knotty, twisted grain, and fights every step of the way. Since I don't have a hydraulic splitter, I usually end up just cutting the pieces lengthwise with the saw.
And I can't see the need for a bigger sprocket on my saw, the chain has plenty of speed as it is.
I compare it to the stroker engine in my truck going down the highway, running plenty of rpm but not working hard, just loafing along. If I'm going to be burning that much fuel anyway, might as well get some work out of it.

Kev, what height are you running your rakers at currently? My 120 likes the rakers at least .035 and my modded 120si likes them even better at .040 in hardwood that is. That much raker drop in softwood would make the chain too grabby for me but plenty of wood cutters I know of run their rakers lower than most recreational wood cutters do. They just rev their saws up before the chain touches the wood and let er rip. Their clutches take a severe beating and so does the drive rims but they are all about production and don`t give a hoot about what limits are printed on a box or data sheet, they know what makes the woodpile grow the fastest.
Pioneerguy600

 

[kspakland]

Jerry,
I experimented with one of my semi chisel chains that is worn about 75% gone, and I estimate the depth around .060.
I went out today to cut a load of Juniper, and found the saw was a bit grabby and the teeth would get caught in the wood and the chain quit moving, so I obviously went a bit too deep. Once I resharpen the chain and shorten the teeth, it should be closer to acceptable levels.
I am going to try and be a bit more exact and experiment around the .040 to .045 depth on my other chains, and see how the saw likes it.
I do have to say, with the same chain speed I was running as before, the saw sure cut a LOT faster when I was able to keep the chain moving. BUT, i don't want to tear up this saw, it has to last me a long time.
And so somebody can get a snicker and give me some sh1t, i DID get the 120 stuck in a cut trimming off a branch when the main trunk rolled over and pinched the bar, and had to grab my cheap made in Communist China POS Homelite to make a relief cut and rescue my good saw.
One chainsaw when out in the field cutting is not enough.

 

[BobL]

I noticed you guys discussing raker depths and it sounds like you need to read the FOP progressive sticky.

To optimize cutting, the raker depth needs to change as the cutter wears. Sticking with a fixed raker depth, 0.025:, 0.035" or 0.045" for the life of the cutter will not give the fastest cuts. The raker depths have to increase during the life of the cutter by quite a large amount to maintain cutting speed. This is called progressive raker setting.

I read about this in the The Carlton Complete book of saw chain. (http://www.sawchain.com/images/complete book.pdf) and then experienced it for myself with milling very hard aussie wood some of which is twice as hard as pecan.

The way to approach this is to work with cutter angles as described in the Sticky.
In practice an example is if your chain is cutting well when it is new then measure your gullet width (typically 0.25) and your raker depth (typically 0.025") and then stick with that ratio (10:1) during the life of the cutter. When the gullet reaches 0.35" the rakers need to be 0.035, when the gullets reach 0.040" the rakers should be set to 0.040 etc.

There is nothing special about the 10:1 ratio, some people find 10:1 produces too much vibe while others find it too wussy. Whatever ratio you pick if it works then sticky with that thru the life of the cutter and it will always cut well provided the cutters are sharp..

The Carlton File-O-Plate does the same thing except it only uses a ratio of 13:1 which I reckon is too wussy. I also reckon it's not truly progressive anyway

How this is achieved is up to the operator. Some operators use grinders to set their rakers but then they really need to round over anyway so if the operator have to pick up a file to do this I find I might as well do it with a file (yep even the 96 cutter chains I do by hand). Using a single gauge is not possible so one possibility is to buy a set of gauges (025, 030, 035, 040, etc). Some people use feeler gauges but I find that is too fiddly so I now use a digital angle finder (DAF) and a file - see post #68 in the sticky for a link to a video of how I do it. In practice I only set the rakers with a DAF about after every dozen touch ups and in between I take a couple of swipes at the rakers with a file.

I use a ratio of 11:1 on loprochain, 10:1 on 3/8 and 9:1 on 404, in hardwoods. Some of my gullets are now around over 0.45" mark and the chain cuts as good as when it was new. There is no extra load on the saw because it is just like running a new chain all the time. In fact it is good for the saw because operators will not need to push it anywhere near as hard as before.

Of all the mods and farting around with saws and different chains etc I have done I'd say this is by far the most significant improvement I have made to my cutting.

 

[kspakland]

Bob,
I read that sticky because I wanted to keep my saw cutting at its best.
However, after reading it I was more confused than before I started reading.
It's a b1tch getting old and feeble.

 

[BryanEx]

Interesting discussion in regards to raker depth but my question is how, what's referred to on this web site as "noodling", is affected? Much of the wood I process is dead or dying elm and the only way for me to split the larger stuff with the equipment I have is to cut it apart. The problem is the "noodles" usually jam up the clutch cover way too much risking an over-heated clutch. I have already replaced one shaft and two chain breaks (I'm convinced) from ripping logs. I'm wondering if running a higher raker depth on a well used chain would create smaller noodles able to be more easily cleared from the saw or would I just end up with a chattery overheated bar?

 

[kspakland]

My bar was chattering bad noodling Juniper today that I can't split. Can't use the chain I went overboard on the rakers until I shorten the teeth.

 

[pioneerguy600]

Interesting discussion in regards to raker depth but my question is how, what's referred to on this web site as "noodling", is affected? Much of the wood I process is dead or dying elm and the only way for me to split the larger stuff with the equipment I have is to cut it apart. The problem is the "noodles" usually jam up the clutch cover way too much risking an over-heated clutch. I have already replaced one shaft and two chain breaks (I'm convinced) from ripping logs. I'm wondering if running a higher raker depth on a well used chain would create smaller noodles able to be more easily cleared from the saw or would I just end up with a chattery overheated bar?

Not sure what you are running for a saw but I take an old clutch side cover and cut away some of the rear portion, this makes an excellent noodling cover but I would not recommend it for everyday use cross cutting. Here is one I made for an 038 Stihl I have been using a little lately.

No jamming up on this setup.
Pioneerguy600