I need a new Furnace - Propane is killing me !!

[Boydz]

Hey Guys,

New here - GREAT FORUM !!! Ive learned soooo much, so thank you all in advance.

I am in the market for my first Add on Wood Furnace and have been reading all I can for a couple weeks now to bring myself up to half speed
I am definetly thinking about a furance with secondaries but am not 100% sure on what these things cost etc. I have about a 3K budget and I am also wondering if I need a unit with a blower or do I just tie it into my existing system somehow and use the blower on the furance ? EPA rating isnt that important, and I understand the differences with between the two. I almost bit the bullet and bought a Daka or a Norseman from menards but figured I'd do some homework first. Its hard to pass them up when they are $700 on sale - LOL
I also found an ad recently for a "FireKing model MOF480" or something that looked pretty good. 7 yrs old and would heat 4000sqft. Looks kinda like the new Energy Kings. This was made by Sterling in Chipowa falls Wisconsin. 9.5 CF fire box. Any ideas if this is a decent furance ? Im thinking older and No secondaries probably. Pic looks good though with forced draft blower on front lower left.

Anyhow,

My situation details:

• Location - Northern IL
• 120yr old Farm house - 2400 sqft Partially insulated with newer themo windows, doors, etc - Still fairly drafty with Balloon framing even though I keep trying to block off air everywhere. 6" in attic insulation is all I have added.
• Old Limestone Foundation leaks some when its windy - its always windy
• 80K BTU Propane high efficiency furnace now - Runs about 21hrs on the coldest days in winter at 65deg daytime and 60deg nighttime setpoint
• 45K BTU Winrich Pellet heater on the first floor that does a pretty good job reducing propane usage on a medium setting as long as I run the furnace fan to circulate. Its nice but not near big enough for the whole house.
• Limited install space in basement, but it will fit with most recommemded clearances to combustables and probably 2 45deg elbows. Insurance company says go ahead. They dont even want to inspect as long as I use double wall pipe from furance to chimney.
• Exisitng Ductwork is all metal and limited to 2nd floor (2 vents and no returns). Its not all that great of shape but I may be able to rework partially or work in stages as $$ allows. Height is limited to roughly about 6'6" to floor joists and ducts hang below that.
• Brand new 5.5" SS 316Ti liner in 32' interior chimney - Has a 6" Thimble for hookup. 5.5" is the biggest I could get in there without going to the exterior of the house with a whole new setup.
• Limited firewood put up for this year - I may have some from a friend that has to be split but has been stored inside for most of the summer and partially last year. Also have a Huge pile that needs to be split thats been outside for several years.
  maybe I can burn Bio Blocks ?

Being on a very tight budget, I am looking to install this myself and feel confident in doing so. I did the liner and have been in the trades for several years and have a good understanding of electrical and mechanical. I am wondering also if I should just get a Barometric Damper also and work to get it dialed in with the manometer upfront. I think the chimney has a really decent draft already with the new liner but have no way to measure it.

Anyhow, any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated along with pricing, availability, etc.

Thank you !!

Ryan

 

[Beefie]

First off Welcome to A.S.

You have already done some research, which is good . There is a ton of info on here regarding add on furnaces, grab your favorite beverage and settle down for some good reading.I am sure Crappie Kieth And Others will be along shortly, they are more nowledge able then I am. I do own A add on furnace, Hotblast 1400. It came with the house if I would of had my choice I would have gone with one with a secondary burn also.

Beefie

 

[CrappieKeith]

With your budget in mind and the flue size I'd ask you to look at our BJ90.
BIG JACK ADD-ON WOOD FURNACE
THE BJ90 90,000 btu output...$1874..it's got gasification too.

....and welcome to the forum. Not only is it a great place to learn about wood heating,but if you hang around long enough you'll find we have some bodacious characters.

I have the very same furnace...lit it 4 days ago. It will run non-stop until June on 2 loads a day. I stopped burning propane 15 years ago(giving my hard earned $$$ away).
A load can be 2 pieces or up to 5 pieces...depending on how cold it is outside. It's got such great burn times the wife will not have to touch it.

You can also add a Hot Rod for your domestic free hot water.

When you opted to get educated you dodged a bullet...what can you really expect from a retailer for 700 when that 700 includes their mark up profit?

 

[Fyrebug]

Welcome aboard Ryan! There's 3 furnace MFG who are sponsors on these thread so you'll get some nice biased advice! :msp_tongue:

Mind you, based on your situation, if you have $3K to burn your best bet would be first and foremost to spend that money on insulation. It will give you the fastest return on investment. Look closely if that cannot be done first. You will not regret it.

If you do not insulate your house at this time, then it sounds like you will need some serious BTU to keep up. So you need a larger wood furnace.

Why not EPA or High Efficiencies furnace? They are not that much more expensive and provide you with a cleaner burn, 1/3 to 1/2 less cord wood usage, Less smoke/creosote, electronic controls, variable speed blower, vent on less expensive 6" chimney, is A/C ready etc... Therefore the cost of ownership is much lower. It's not just about the cost of the unit.

The Max Caddy for example retails at $3,079 (plus $1,300 for the blower kit) Wood and wood-oil-electric trio furnaces : PSG Max Caddy Average output BTU is 90,000. It has a glass door with air wash so it always stays clean so the wife doesnt have to open to door to find out if there is enough wood. You can also add a water loop kit to pre-heat your hot water tank to save even more money.

I would suggest downloading the manual of any furnaces you contemplate to purchase first to make sure you have the head room & clearances required.

 

[blades]

Hi. and welcome. That 32 ft chimney, once it gets warm/hot is going to produce a lot of draft so will definitely need a barometric damper to control that aspect. On the flip side it is also going to be a bit of a beast to get going. If you do not warm it up first it will reverse on you ( back draft - personal experience) and it does not take long to fill the basement with smoke. So add a draft blower for start up to your plans. Nothing fancy needed just a blower that you can turn on until fire is going fairly well. I would not bother with the inexpensive hot blast ( I have one), Daka, Norseman or similar units, the auto draft controls on these units are less than adequate ( useless). If it is listed as a coal/ wood unit it is not what you want. I would definitely be looking for a unit that is wood only with true secondary combustion (a unit with preheated air introduced) or a CAT ( psg caddy I believe). I am in Milwaukee metro area so climate is about the same. The units you listed and I just mentioned will eat a lot of wood in our area. Just to be fair I have a friend that has a Daka ( $700) but it is located on the main floor in his cottage up north, it does keep us warm but the swings are wild and only about 4 hours of usable heat per loading. The low cost units are not load it and walk away units. You have to baby them with1 or 2 splits every couple hours ( and that doesn't fly real well with the other half)

 

[laynes69]

Welcome, I was in the same boat as you. We have a 2400 sq.ft. Victorian home from the mid 19th century. Tall ceilings, 42 windows, walls insulated but little attic insulation. There was a huge amount of air infiltration that was killing us on heating and comfort. Heres a few things I found out.

Balloon-framed homes are the worst culprits for air infiltration, which are the most difficult to seal. If you didn't airseal the attic carefully before insulating, you should look at all top plates of the interior walls, plumbing, chimneys, wiring, chases, etc. Every little nook and cranny should be sealed. We found 32 open cavities, which was due to the balloon framing of the home. Drywall and caulking will stop the flow of air and is inexpensive. Expanding foam will work for cracks and gaps 1/4" and more. 6" of insulation in the attic is a good start, but there should be more. Cellulose is a very good product thats inexpensive and works well for attics. After the attic, the basement needs to be sealed. Look at interior walls, more than likely they are transferring air to the outside, seal these. Then seal where the house meets the foundation. We did this, which our house was very drafty, and in the process we cut about 25% from the heat loss. Most of the materials we used we had laying around. All this results in savings no matter what form of heat you use, as well as increased comfort.

I will tell you the difference in wood consumption from a standard run of the mill furnace like the Daka, or Norseman to a EPA model is quite a bit. Less maintaince in the chimney, less wood and longer burns. A basic furnace will heat the house just fine if on a budget, but they aren't too efficient. I would consider getting an energy audit done, which is what we did. If you find the house isn't too terrible then I would go for a furnace. If the house needs alot of attention, then sealing and insulating may be the better option. If it were me, I would try to divide the money out for a basic furnace for now while concentrating on energy upgrades. This allows for both, then in the future you could upgrade to a better furnace.

 

[himins]

Daka has been getting a pretty bad rap

I am having much better results with the 621 fb Daka than other folks, with deeper pockets, I would have considered the Big Jack as mentioned above. I only wonder why the Daka is working considerably better than any report I've seen posted so far. I live in the N.W. corner of Minnesota, and have been getting no-nonsence burns all night at minus ten with gusty winds. My home is poorly insulated and quite drafty, at least 90 years old and 2 story. The unique application in my case is there is no basement so the installation was done on the main floor. This means I benefit from pleanty of radiant heat and may explain some of the improvement. It certianly installed nicely into the existing clay lined chimney. It took some 2 weeks to get familiar with the burn enough to keep the chimney from being an issue. I have been burning wood that has been well seasoned but not real good quality wood...elm poplar etc.. If anything, this furnace is just a bit too large for my older home. I will be adding hot water and a non catalytic stainless steel after burner to the unit made from my own design, which may shorten my burn time somewhat. I will post a photo of the after burner when its installed if anyone is interested. I should have mentioned, I broke the circuit to the fan when the stack temprature is below 250 degrees, which means the stack temp does not get even lower caused by the circulating fan scrubbing off the furnace temprature, one may not want to make that adaptation in a basement installation. The noise from the furnace fan is a drawback, but with the furnace installed on the main floor, it can be throttled back enough to use as radiant heat only. This furnace needs no power to make this house very cozy, I may use 4 cords of wood this year, probably 5 on a harsher winter. This may not be as effeciant as other brands...but i could potentially afford to purchase 6 cords of wood delivered and stacked and this would be a tiny fraction of what I have been paying for heating oil. There isn't many things to go wrong on this stove. Its pretty handy where I live as we lose power here pleanty.

 

[Sdh1218]

I second getting energy audit and putting in insulation. I have a 1920 house that had no Insulation. Paid $700 to insulate the attic and $75 for the energy audit. My state gave me tax credits for the Insulation and I spent maybe $250 for some of the other recommend things. Save more then that on my NG bill in the first year. The next year put in a new furnace to bring it down more but the small things made the biggest impact.

 

[EXCALIBER]

I would say if you can afford to buy and install the furnace you want, not some lesser model that may work, but the best one you want for your situation, then do it. Do not skimp on quality. Now with that being said this is assuming you have access to wood, and cut yourself. Now once installed you can save money from the propane raper and put that money towards insulation, I would suggest foam as it does a much better job at blocking all the drafts.

Now, if you cannot afford the best furnace for your application that is on the market, I would first spend the money on insulation then later a furnace/stove. Take it from me the more efficient your furnace/stove is the better. You will not regret spending more on a very good unit in the long run. Happy hunting

 

[OH_Varmntr]

+1 on spending some of that money on continuing to insulate the house.

As far as furnaces go, I've got a Norseman that I bought used. This is my first burn season with it and I'm heating 3600sq ft with it (well insulated), and it's only rated for 2500sq ft. It was cheap and I'm only using it until I get an outside wood burner (hopefully next year). If you're looking long term then you should definately invest the money in a higher quality unit.

I've burned close to 3 cords so far, as this thing is extremely inefficient. I installed a manual damper to help control the burn rates. I can get between 4-8 hours on a full load, depending on weather conditions, types of wood, etc... It has went 9.5 hours on a load but it wasn't burning nearly hot enough and I'm sure I was laying the creosote on thick in the chimney.

I load it before I leave for work at night (9:30pm), and when I get home in the morning (6:30am) it barely has enough coals left to touch off some kindling and get a fire going again.

From the reading I've done, seems if you can afford a nicer furnace then do it. Efficiencies are higher so that's that much less wood you use which equals less work to cut/split/stack wood. Plus they require less maintenance.

I clean my chimney once every 4-6 weeks and get enough creosote out to fill up a big coffee can.

Guys like CrappieKeith and Fyrebug are in the industry and know a thing or two about their furnaces and won't steer you wrong.

 

[dhopkins55]

+ 2 on insulation first, then furnace. I have a wood/coal furnace made by Yukon-Eagle (same company that makes Big Jack wood add-on that Crappie Keith talks about) and it was the right decision for me. I alternate burning wood & coal, and when burning coal exclusively it's 1/2 the cost of propane. When burning wood it's roughly 1/3 the cost of coal, so wood = roughly 1/6 the cost of propane! I figure to recoup my purchase and installation in about 4-5 years. I'm sure there are other great wood furnace add-ons, but I really like the Yukon line, and their customer service/support is first rate. :yoyo: