If synthetic premium oils are so good?

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well i use Stihl 2 stroke, and penrite Hi-per semi synthetic at 25:1-32:1 ...HA get that up ya. :msp_ohmy:

No carbon build up, No fouled plug, No top end or bottom end issues at all ......
 
It is a simple fact that synthetic oils provide better lubrication with less friction and with stand heat better than conventional dino oils. They also flow better in cold weather. I do not need to know any more than that.

Can anyone link to a study of some sort of actual field data where the conclusion clearly states that Synth has less friction. Not that it will hold lubricant properties longer....that it will wear some metals less.

PS ...good to see ya posting Albert. Hope your back is better.
A
 
I've been using belray HR-1 for about a year at 50:1, saws are run all day 5 days a week. Saws get regular comp tests (monthly). I've pulled a couple P&C's and they're all clean with no signs of wear. I don't run screens, so can't comment on screen clogging but I would imagine not at 50:1. I think a lot of guys do just add more for the sake of it.

I buy most of my stuff in bulk - chain, bar and mix oil etc... the HR-1 costs me the same as stihl synthetic. It's also much the same color/consistency. I tried the stihl stuff but it gave my sinuses hell. I use the HR-1 mostly because the smell bothers me the least. I wish it was any color other than red.

Shaun
 
Stihl petro was OK back in the day, but Ultra is way better. My FS76 brushcutter was run on the Stihl orange bottle for years, being used in my business it had more than 1500 hours on it. It finally quit because the rings stuck from carbon buildup. Always at 50:1. Since then all my two-strokes run on Stihl Ultra at the recommended ratio with one ounce per gallon of Klotz Super Techniplate added. This works out to about 36:1. My two stroke dirt bikes and road racing bike were always run at 32:1. My saws and FS76 now keep nearly spotless top ends. I'm fairly sure that it would all be fine at 50:1, but with $500 to $1000 in a saw I want better than fine. A test was done decades ago that proved extra oil causes zero power loss. As cheap as oil is, more is better.
 
More oil also lowers octane ratings. I don't think 50:1 is strictly an epa thing. More oil will improve ring seal, but at 10k rpms I doubt it. Has anyone run theses oils at 50:1?

More oil equals more power, and it does improve ring seal, in particularly at high rpm's. Any of the top 2T oils will work fine at 50:1 however you now have a smaller margin for error, and when you start getting into ported saws everything changes. Wider ports, more compression, more rpm's, more heat the list goes on. Most who run 2T oils are running ported saws and simply use the same mix in all of their saws regardless. Tests have shown temperature differences between 32:1 and 50:1 to be negligible at best. I implore you and other to read through passed oil threads, I even posted a writeup from a chemical engineer that works for Fuchs.

Can anyone link to a study of some sort of actual field data where the conclusion clearly states that Synth has less friction. Not that it will hold lubricant properties longer....that it will wear some metals less.

PS ...good to see ya posting Albert. Hope your back is better.
A

Synthetic oil isn't necessarily about friction, it's mostly about stability, shear strength and other desirable properties associated with ester based oils.
 
I forgot to mention.... On the bottle for HR-1 it says 'engines below 125cc 32:1, engines above 40:1. I was kinda worried about that, so I contacted belray and they said to use the manufacturers reccomendation and that 50:1 is fine for saws. They also said that plenty of people are using it in modern 2 stroke outboards at 100:1 with no problems. They also said that more oil won't hurt.....

Shaun
 
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That R/C airplane test is what I seen to try belray. The stuff seems to not leave any build up which is great and the smell isn't bad at all. I hate the smell of stihl ultra as it gives me a head ache if there's no wind and I'm in a wood pile.
 
Hmmmmm. Food for thought Mike. Is Klotz a mail order item as I've never seen it for sale locally?
Bob

Bob, there used to be a member/sponsor on here who sold Klotz but apparently he hasn't posted on here in a couple of years. You can order it off there website at Klotz.com . Some of these guys that use it might know of a sponsor on here who sells it.
 
Stihl petro was OK back in the day, but Ultra is way better. My FS76 brushcutter was run on the Stihl orange bottle for years, being used in my business it had more than 1500 hours on it. It finally quit because the rings stuck from carbon buildup. Always at 50:1. Since then all my two-strokes run on Stihl Ultra at the recommended ratio with one ounce per gallon of Klotz Super Techniplate added. This works out to about 36:1. My two stroke dirt bikes and road racing bike were always run at 32:1. My saws and FS76 now keep nearly spotless top ends. I'm fairly sure that it would all be fine at 50:1, but with $500 to $1000 in a saw I want better than fine. A test was done decades ago that proved extra oil causes zero power loss. As cheap as oil is, more is better.

that there is pearls....
 
Back in the dark ages we ran Blendzall in the MX bikes and never really had an oil related problem. I actually run 2 types of oil, Maxima 927 (man give me a quart and it reminds me of Blendzall by smell), and Mobil 2T (no longer produced but I have 14 quarts). I like either one, both are synthetic based, and never had a problem with either.

I am now out of the Maxima (mixed my fuel for the WKY GTG) and don't anticipate buying anymore so it will be Mobil 2T from now on. It may be a several years before I burn 150 gallons of premix (14 quarts @ 42:1) so I'm set for a while to come.

I really don't think (name brands not off brands) there is a bad oil out there today. Technology has come so far in the last 25 years and I just don't think there are any bad ones out there. Just my $.02

Did I really post in an oil thread? GGGGEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
 
Snthetic oil in a two stroke - really?

Well designed/built two cycle engines are mechanical marvels. Power to weight ratio is unequalled. Simplicity and reliability are also their strong suits.

Let's not forget that the design has been around for a very long time, has endured numerous decades of straight 30 weight auto oil mixed as high as 16:1 or more as it's source of lubrication. As we all know, today's conventional two cycle oil is considerably better than the old 30W of years gone by. Engine performance has also kept pace with the times and puts more demand on oil.

I agree that good oil is better for an engine than lesser quality oils. However, there is a cost ceiling associated to that line of thought.

Considering that two cycle oil does not stay in the engine as it does in a four cycle engine, long duration service is not a necessary requirement. The ability to handle high temperatures is a benefit but let's not forget that on every stroke of a two cycle engines, a fresh charge of cool fresh air is assisting in keeping internal temperatures under control.
Accordingly, there isn't a necessity for the use of synthetic oil in a chainsaw being used in normal wood cutting service regardless of how hot it is that day or how long the saw is run. The engine is built to handle it.

I own a 1984 Jred 630, a 1985 Jred 670, and a 2007 Echo CS346. All bought new. I also own over 30 other pieces of two cycle powered OPE, motorcycles and snowmobiles. Some of these machines are 40 years old or more. All have seen plenty of service, some of it very hard. I'm presently experimenting on/torturing several Tecumseh two cycle powered single stage snowblowers. In stock configuration, they're set to run at less than 4000 rpm. I'm running them at 6000 to 6500. One of the blowers is over 15 years old and has seen enough use to break it's engine mount. I repaired the mount and use that machine as my primary snow blower and we see a lot of snow here. That machine is flogged mercilessly and just keeps on keeping on.

From my extensive experience I've found absolutely no need to use synthetic oil. The above mentioned machines have never seen anything but a decent grade of two cycle oil. As a rule, I buy Canadian Tire brand Motomaster two cycle oil in 5 liter jugs. Naysayers and boutique oil advocates can scoff all they want. I know better because that's all I've used for over 30 years. I have never burned out or damaged a two cycle engine on anything I've owned. If a person has the basic ability to adjust the carburetor correctly to prevent a lean conditon, there's very little possibility that they will experience a cylinder/piston lubrication failure using a decent conventional oil.

Bottom line is that there is no harm in using a synthetic oil. There's also no harm in using a good grade conventional oil. If you have no objection to being bent over the barrel to pay the price of expensive synthtic oil, have at it. If you're unwilling to take a hosing on synthetic oil, you can rest comfortably knowing your saw will last just as long using any decent grade conventional oil.
 
Well designed/built two cycle engines are mechanical marvels. Power to weight ratio is unequalled. Simplicity and reliability are also their strong suits.

Let's not forget that the design has been around for a very long time, has endured numerous decades of straight 30 weight auto oil mixed as high as 16:1 or more as it's source of lubrication. As we all know, today's conventional two cycle oil is considerably better than the old 30W of years gone by. Engine performance has also kept pace with the times and puts more demand on oil.

I agree that good oil is better for an engine than lesser quality oils. However, there is a cost ceiling associated to that line of thought.

Considering that two cycle oil does not stay in the engine as it does in a four cycle engine, long duration service is not a necessary requirement. The ability to handle high temperatures is a benefit but let's not forget that on every stroke of a two cycle engines, a fresh charge of cool fresh air is assisting in keeping internal temperatures under control.
Accordingly, there isn't a necessity for the use of synthetic oil in a chainsaw being used in normal wood cutting service regardless of how hot it is that day or how long the saw is run. The engine is built to handle it.

I own a 1984 Jred 630, a 1985 Jred 670, and a 2007 Echo CS346. All bought new. I also own over 30 other pieces of two cycle powered OPE, motorcycles and snowmobiles. Some of these machines are 40 years old or more. All have seen plenty of service, some of it very hard. I'm presently experimenting on/torturing several Tecumseh two cycle powered single stage snowblowers. In stock configuration, they're set to run at less than 4000 rpm. I'm running them at 6000 to 6500. One of the blowers is over 15 years old and has seen enough use to break it's engine mount. I repaired the mount and use that machine as my primary snow blower and we see a lot of snow here. That machine is flogged mercilessly and just keeps on keeping on.

From my extensive experience I've found absolutely no need to use synthetic oil. The above mentioned machines have never seen anything but a decent grade of two cycle oil. As a rule, I buy Canadian Tire brand Motomaster two cycle oil in 5 liter jugs. Naysayers and boutique oil advocates can scoff all they want. I know better because that's all I've used for over 30 years. I have never burned out or damaged a two cycle engine on anything I've owned. If a person has the basic ability to adjust the carburetor correctly to prevent a lean conditon, there's very little possibility that they will experience a cylinder/piston lubrication failure using a decent conventional oil.

Bottom line is that there is no harm in using a synthetic oil. There's also no harm in using a good grade conventional oil. If you have no objection to being bent over the barrel to pay the price of expensive synthtic oil, have at it. If you're unwilling to take a hosing on synthetic oil, you can rest comfortably knowing your saw will last just as long using any decent grade conventional oil.




I cannot disagree with what you said but, the cost of a top end for a good pro saw will pay the difference in the oil cost many times. Not to mention the time, labor and headache of having your equipment down when you want or need to work it. I have no problem paying the difference for what I consider "extra insurance".
I agree that even a good dino oil may give more protection than an engine actually needs under most conditions, but it comes down to knowing I've done the best by my tools that I can.


Mike
 
Whatever your comfort level is Mike.

The right size screwdriver, a tiny bit of carb knowledge and paying attention to how your saw is operating will go a long way toward preventing cooking the top end. Even synthetic oil can't save you from destroying the engine due to a lean condition. Might give you a minute or two more running time but that's about it. If it's running too lean for too long expect problems.

As I've said, in my 40+ years of two cycle ownership, I've yet to ruin an engine. Trust me, I've cut many, many cords of wood with my saws. If I had any concerns whatsoever with the ability of modern conventional two cycle oil to do it's job, I'd switch to synthetic. However, that's never been and likely never will be the case.

Over the years, I've probably saved a few grand by not falling for the synthetic oil marketing hype. I plan to continue that trend.
 
It's cheap insurance, plain and simple. Would a ported saw do fine on standard oil at 50:1? Probably. But, is it better protected at 32:1, or with a premium ester based synthetic oil? Most definately!

Ester based full synthetic oils are by design, superior lubricants. That's a scientific fact. Is it a "better" that's needed? You can decide.

Why more oil than 50:1? Heavier concentrations of oil have been proven to provide better ring seal, and therefore more power. Many don't care about that last little bit of power. So, again, you be the judge.

Bottom end protection, as Andre mentioned, is another big factor. Ported saws are turning a lot more RPMs, and making more power as well.

So, is the better oil and heavier ratio required? No. Is it beneficial? Does it better protect your engine. Most definately?
 
Over the years, I've probably saved a few grand by not falling for the synthetic oil marketing hype. I plan to continue that trend.

Synthetic oil is not hype, and like it has already been stated is a superior lubricant to dino oil. The fact you do not use synthetic does not make it hype, and what, the rest of us are fools because we fell for the hype. Facts are facts about oil and if you choose to ignore them fine but facts are not hype.
 
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I understand the whole cheap insurance thing, but according to Arboristsite, I've done about everything wrong there is to do with 2 stroke oil and knowledgeable people have check the insides of my saws, and there isn't anything wrong with them. I'm all for synthetic, because I don't spend much if any more for the Amsoil than regular oil and the synthetic oil doesn't stink or burn my eyes near as bad as regular oil.

I've run several saws on Supertech Outboard oil and know of several amish loggers that use the same thing without issues. I've run Amsoil at 80:1 without any issues. I know a landscaper that runs every 2 stroke he owns (which is a lot) on Amsoil at 100:1.

He looks at me running Amsoil at 50:1 like I look at someone who runs sub-50:1 ratios, LOL.

Sam
 
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I even posted a writeup from a chemical engineer that works for Fuchs.

A77
You wouldn't have a link to that would You?
I like reading techy stuff about oil!
 
After spending 30+ years running saws and selling firewood and now working in a saw shop four days a week, I was sold on synthetic before but really sold on it now. Yes, I got by for years with orange bottle dino Stihl mix, but after seeing the carbon build up in saws and trimmers the last two weeks on engines run on dino vs synthetic plus the number of carb/ fuel line issues I'll continue to run Ultra.
The additives in good syns help keep the Saw a good Shindawia trimmer run on dino the last two years under hard commercial use were the exhaust port was literally carboned up to a about a 5mm hole. I'll take the extra insurance of the synthetics in my saws anyday/everyday I like the extra insurance and I try to convince every customer I meet to make the switch to a good synthetic, we sell Ultra,just one of many good options on the market.
 

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