If synthetic premium oils are so good?

[albert]

Been away all day. Question is if 50:1 ok with a stock oil, or synthetic blend, shouldn't the highly touted ester race oils be more than adequate for most applications at 50:1.
Like already mentioned, poor-contaminated fuel and lean mixtures wreck more saws than oil ratio's. Alot of users seem to think 50:1 is absolutely at the ragged edge of destruction. Fact is there is enough margin to go less oil. If not most saws would not last for a fraction of the warranty period. How many users get the mix 100% correct? I have seen them quickly pour the oil into the gas can with a good amount remaining in the bottle and then add a extra tenth or two of a gllon of gas.
Years ago omc and mercury outboards torture tested their engines at mixtures as lean as 100:1 with then current oils. They showed the results at service schools and emphasized how much saftey margin is built into 50:1. I realize water cooled vs air cooled, 6000 rpm vs 10.000. I am sure every saw manufactuer has done similar tests.

 

[Andyshine77]

A77
You wouldn't have a link to that would You?
I like reading techy stuff about oil!

Post # 40, 41 and 42. http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/132479-3.htm#post2163783

 

[Captain CaveMan]

opcorn:
A saw will run for a long time on a quality dino. But this has been hashed out in every conceivable way of lubrication from cars to grease in heavy shear industrial machinery.In fact I love to dable in oil tribology, I have been a member on Bob is the oil guy forum for 10 years now how nerdy is that, almost as nerdy as being obsessed with chainsaws . The fact of the matter is they have found many many times over that synthetic has desirable properties that its resistance to shear and temperature extremes is a boon in most situations. Is it overkill, I'm sure in so many ways yes.
But in the end why are we here if good enough is all thats needed, if that's the case go get a chainsaw and saw through the log and be done with it. But there's the passion and CAD :biggrin: . We want more power more bang for our buck faster and faster speeds through the log ease of saw use, reliability. etc.
For some of us we feel synthetic while more gives more of those qualities we desire.
To each his own.........my .02

 

[Andyshine77]

Been away all day. Question is if 50:1 ok with a stock oil, or synthetic blend, shouldn't the highly touted ester race oils be more than adequate for most applications at 50:1.
Like already mentioned, poor-contaminated fuel and lean mixtures wreck more saws than oil ratio's. Alot of users seem to think 50:1 is absolutely at the ragged edge of destruction. Fact is there is enough margin to go less oil. If not most saws would not last for a fraction of the warranty period. How many users get the mix 100% correct? I have seen them quickly pour the oil into the gas can with a good amount remaining in the bottle and then add a extra tenth or two of a gllon of gas.
Years ago omc and mercury outboards torture tested their engines at mixtures as lean as 100:1 with then current oils. They showed the results at service schools and emphasized how much saftey margin is built into 50:1. I realize water cooled vs air cooled, 6000 rpm vs 10.000. I am sure every saw manufactuer has done similar tests.

Albert it seems like you have it all figured out. Why did you start this thread if you already had the answers you needed? My guess is you have a reason. Amsoil has yet to invade this forum like they have elsewhere and I'm sure they'd like to be a sponsor here. Amsoil makes great oils, but their business practices are a big turn off.

I've seen first hand the results of running 100:1 mix in a saw, I had the parts in my own hands, and as of now I will not run anything on 100:1 mix. Sure oil technology changes and someday 100:1 mix may work fine in air cooled non injected engines, but as of today that oils does not exist.

Here are pics of a saws top end that was ran on Amsoil Saber @ 100:1. The saw was bone stock.

 

[Andyshine77]

opcorn:
A saw will run for a long time on a quality dino. But this has been hashed out in every conceivable way of lubrication from cars to grease in heavy shear industrial machinery.In fact I love to dable in oil tribology, I have been a member on Bob is the oil guy forum for 10 years now how nerdy is that, almost as nerdy as being obsessed with chainsaws . The fact of the matter is they have found many many times over that synthetic has desirable properties that its resistance to shear and temperature extremes is a boon in most situations. Is it overkill, I'm sure in so many ways yes.
But in the end why are we here if good enough is all thats needed, if that's the case go get a chainsaw and saw through the log and be done with it. But there's the passion and CAD :biggrin: . We want more power more bang for our buck faster and faster speeds through the log ease of saw use, reliability. etc.
For some of us we feel synthetic while more gives more of those qualities we desire.
To each his own.........my .02

Now that is a good post people.

 

[albert]

I don't run Amsoil and I don't run or recomend less than 50:1. But if I spend more for Belray, Klotz, ect. because it's way better, why would I NEED MORE OF IT??

 

[komatsuvarna]

Belray, klotz, and Maxima doesnt cost any more than Stihl Ultra here,,actually if i remember right i buy the H1R for the same money the Orange bottle Stihl cost. Ultra is good oil, but i absolutely cannot stand the smell.....kills my sinuses for some reason.

I run H1R at 32:1. Why? Because I want to!

 

[Gologit]

I don't run Amsoil and I don't run or recomend less than 50:1. But if I spend more for Belray, Klotz, ect. because it's way better, why would I NEED MORE OF IT??

Run what you want to run. Everybody else does.

 

[albert]

Ultra is too pricey compared to the others. I'm with you on the smell also.

 

[sbhooper]

Out of curiosity, where do the synthetic blends fit in the reasoning chain of thoughts? Better than dino i would presume, lesser than full?

Synthetic blends are a scam. To legally be called a "blend", it only has to have one percent synthetic in it. Either use the petroleum, or go synthetic, but the blends are a joke.

As far as oil ratio goes, anything under 50:1 is overkill as far as lubing the engine. It comes down to personal preference as sythetics can be run at anything fro 100:1 on down. If you want to add extra oil and make it 10:1, go for it as it is your choice. I'll stay with 50:1.

 

[borat]

Why is the NEED for synthetic oil hype?

Ask yourself this question:

If the oil manufacturers stopped making synthetic oil, would all of the two stroke engines in the world blow up or live shorter lives because they have nothing left to use but conventional oil?

If the answer is no, then the need for synthetic oil, in my opinion, is simply marketing hype to squeeze more money out of consumers.

People can use what they want. However, when advocates of synthetic oil make claims of wild superiority, I think that has to be challenged. The advantage of synthetic oil, in normal woodcutting saws and conditions is minimal at best. To pay a premium of two, three, four and even five times the cost for synthetic oil is hardly worth the .1% gain in engine protection.

The value just isn't there. I know. I have the engines, the time spent using them and experience to prove it.

 

[dk27]

Post # 40, 41 and 42. http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/132479-3.htm#post2163783

Thanks

 

[rms61moparman]

Why is the NEED for synthetic oil hype?

Ask yourself this question:

If the oil manufacturers stopped making synthetic oil, would all of the two stroke engines in the world blow up or live shorter lives because they have nothing left to use but conventional oil?

If the answer is no, then the need for synthetic oil, in my opinion, is simply marketing hype to squeeze more money out of consumers.

People can use what they want. However, when advocates of synthetic oil make claims of wild superiority, I think that has to be challenged. The advantage of synthetic oil, in normal woodcutting saws and conditions is minimal at best. To pay a premium of two, three, four and even five times the cost for synthetic oil is hardly worth the .1% gain in engine protection.

The value just isn't there. I know. I have the engines, the time spent using them and experience to prove it.

DUDE!

You know what they say about opinions right?

"Everybody has one and everyone's stinks except for mine"!


You have stated your case very eloquently.
We ALL understand your opinion completely.
Many of us don't agree with your opinion and no amount of expounding what you see as obvious is going to change our mind.
Spend your money as you like and allow the rest of us the same consideration.


Mike

 

[3000 FPS]

DUDE!

You know what they say about opinions right?

"Everybody has one and everyone's stinks except for mine"!


You have stated your case very eloquently.
We ALL understand your opinion completely.
Many of us don't agree with your opinion and no amount of expounding what you see as obvious is going to change our mind.
Spend your money as you like and allow the rest of us the same consideration.


Mike

I have to say you are much more patient than I am.

 

[sun64]

I have used the husky low smoke, stihl oils and a few other quality oils over the years.
As stated in another post, I run 25:1 or 32:1 depending on what I am doing.
I have seen pics of a Stihl ms660 run for 2 years before a port job on 25:1 with no carbon build up.
If you run a higher oil ratio then it does lower your octain rating.
For this reason in Australia I use 95 octane rated premium fuel in my mixes with my higher oil percentages.
Each to their own what they mix. Mine works for me and oil is cheap compared to the saw
My 2 cents worth

 

[Joe Kidd]

I think I'll switch to "Oil of Olay". At least my top ends won't have any wrinkles!

 

[naturelover]

I didn't believe all the synthetic hype either, but have been slowly switching over stuff to it.

Have an older ATV and started running it on Rotella T6 because I run it in the winter and liked the idea of being able to use it year round.

However, I also have a pickup and car with 215k, and 265k, and they've been run on regular oil since new, so that doesn't help determine if there is a difference really.

Then started running synthetic in my new ATV after the 500 mile break-in, and I did notice the radiator fan didn't seem to come on as much climbing steep hills. May be a coincidence though.

But where I saw a difference was running the Moto-mix in the FS-250. Ran 93 octane/Stihl orange bottle stuff in it since new, but decided to run the 441C-M on the Moto-mix because it is ethanol free.

Well, ran it through the FS-250 and noticed that it didn't leave any oil spots on the fan shroud like it had always done before on the orange bottle oil. What that means, I don't know.

I do think that since it is mostly burning off, it wouldn't carbon up things as much.

Plus, those little droplets of oil aren't finding their way into the atmosphere....

 

[albert]

Nobody has really answered the question, If the belray-klotz type of synthetic oils are that much better, why run heavier than 50:1?

I don't have an issue with using these oils or heavier mixes. Like said run what you like. But alot here keep drumming how much better they are, and in the same breath say they run at 25 or 32:1. Some say extra insurance, why? Alot seems to be based on feeling, rather than fact. Andy and Brad did alot of research and touted Klotz r50 or something, then had carbon issues with only a few tanks run. Then switched to Maxima, and then? I had a guy use a Klotz synthetic on a new 660 and that piston made the one Andy posted look mint. No it wasn't scored yet, but had a plastic like varnish and alot of hard carbon on it.

 

[lmbrman]

all I can say is the same thing i tell my wife-

I have no opinion

 

[Andyshine77]

I had a guy use a Klotz synthetic on a new 660 and that piston made the one Andy posted look mint. No it wasn't scored yet, but had a plastic like varnish and alot of hard carbon on it.

You're full of crap! have a nice day.

Andre.