If you need to be rescued...

[Bradley]

Let me pose a question to you guys after the "Arborist Death" thread. If you needed to be rescued, how would you like it done? On the same note, if you were called on to rescue another climber, how would you go about it, and let's say you don't have any spikes available? For the situation mentioned, how would you get the climber down from an 80' pine spar with no spikes? I would welcome any thoughful responses to this. I am trying to come up with techniques and ideas for Fire Service responses to tree worker injuries. I've been working on this subject within my department for a while now and am looking for outside thoughts and feelings from you guys.

Stay safe, Steve

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

For myself, the fastest way possible.

If I were doing it, the same thing. I would ascend the injured climbers line if I had to, and could crotch in form there.

Another benni of SRT, having the ascention line stay in the treemakes it that much easier for a rescue. If the resceuer knows what to do with it.

 

[Bradley]

JPS, one of the things I've noticed in the few times I've seen a climber need to be rescued is the absence of any rope at all. Usually just a flat polestrap. All but one were up a pine with either the top hung on them or hurt from the top coming back on them with the lack of a proper hinge cut.

 

[Tim Gardner]

Ascend on loops and descend on an 8.


Wire core flip lines make for a better loop because they open up easier.

 

[TREETX]

Being that this was merely a case of removing a carcass from a tree, why not just drop the whole tree?

Please keep us posted if any one knows what actually went wrong.

I would like to be removed the fastest way possible and by someone who wouldn't make the situation worse. If I was dead, don't rush, hurt yourself, and make things worse.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Bradley,

What plans have you developed at this point? Please let us know so that we can incorporate your work into our practices.

Is the patient stable but injured? What's the status of their vitals? ABCs?

Our profession doesn't do a very good job of teaching proper first responder protocols. Too much emphasis on getting a patient to the ground. This might not be the best process. Take a look at car accidents. The EMTs don't tear the patient out of the car, they stabilize in place. Why don't we teach the same?

I'd bet dollars do donuts that very few of the participants on this forum have had any first aid training beyond a single day training. How many have a rigged and ready climbing setup in a grab bag?

The rescue procedure is going to be predicated by the patient's conditions. Or, are you asking how a rescuer would ascend to the patient?

Tom

 

[Treeman14]

Originally posted by TREETX
Being that this was merely a case of removing a carcass from a tree, why not just drop the whole tree?

R - E - S - P - E - C - T



I certainly hope you were just trying to be funny.

 

[greenguy]

The cost of a set of spikes should not stop the fire dept from rescues. What would they do if a lineman or telephone guy need rescue they couldn't use their non insulated ladder truck or they would be in trouble to. Their are over 300 tree companies in the metro atlanta area. Their is no logical reason for such improper training for this situation. The rescue squads need alot of work. It was not to far back when they had a hard time getting worker down from a window washing rig. It must have been to hard to use the elevator and rapel down.

 

[coydog]

a big shot, a bag of loop runners, plenty of throwline and two extra climbing lines on hand. If threading a throwline is tricky, but rescuer is able to shoot bag over an acceptable tie in point, one line with a biner or sheave to act as a false crotch for a second line could be hoisted via throwline and secured to base of tree. If there is no acceptable target/rigging point gaffs should be handy as well, but a bag of loop runners and minimally a couple of rigging slings could be used to set foot stirrups in a trunk if spurs were not available. One could be retrieved as another was set. not the fastest way but a way nonetheless.

 

[xander9727]

Each situation has it's own "best way" to be handled. Alot of injuries can be avoided through preparation and training. I would want to be rescued asap and in a way that would not injure me more. If local rescue personnel don't train for these situations the chance for error is great. I would rather have an experience climber rescue me than an untrained fireman. If your pinched in a tree and an errant cut is made the situation can become much worse. I have always maintained an extensive medical bag and teach my employees how to use the different pieces of equipment. The majority of my employees are ex-military so they have some trauma training when they start. After reading about the dead climber I am adding an additional set of spikes and a rescue harness to my emergency kit. I think everyone in the industry should have a tourniquet, several pressure bandages, hemostats and elastic wraps as a minimum. Chainsaws can easily sever arteries and a tourniquet is the BEST way to stop arterial bleeding. The old school of thought was to use a tourniquet as a last resort. Research has show that limbs will live in excess of 4 hours with a tourniquet applied. You should have the injured person to a hospital in less than four hours. If you go into shock from blood loss you increase your chances of dying by 85%. I realize that prevention is the best form of safety but, if a mishap does occur the severity can be greatly reduced if properly equipted and trained personnel are present. "Remember, the life you save could be your own."

 

[viking]

Having had some experience is some of the issues in this thread I offer the following. The first priority ( has cold as it seems) is not to lose anyone else to a bad situation. The victim(s) have to be checked and ABC's done asap. While stabilization is occuring a removal plan is formulated and exicuted. Tom is correct that a medic will not just rip apart a car for a removal. The best is to stabalize then removed so that no other injuries are created (spine and back) Fire and Rescue personel should be trained in this type of rescue. Proper equipment must be maintained. When power is involved most power companies have people trained or they provide the equipment and work with a medic or fire personel together. As far as calling other climbers from private companies local goverments run into the liablitiy issues if they allow someone to effect a rescue and the victims and/or the rescuers are killed or sustain further injuries. Professional climbers can work with fire rescue in regards to training,equipment, and developing wriiten policy. If there is policy in place private professional climbers can assist under the policy. As long as everything was followed according to policy then liability is reduced. If you come upon a situation that is not yet controled by police/fire you may act on your own and be covered under the good simaritan act.
What is needed is for those of you that feel strongly about this is to introduce yourselfs to the local fire chief and start discussion about helping them with training.
Training is everything. When it hits the fan the training is the only thing you revert to.
The squad I was involved with trained very hard. We were serious about our training and equipment. So you train for the worst and hope you never have to use it. But as we know that is not the case.First aid training for you and your crew would hurt. basic first aid kit in the truck. Most important some sort of plan. Anyplan is better than nothing.
I could on for ever about what to do, but that would be a book and there are many already written
Hope you all never have to use your plan

 

[Nickrosis]

An experience climber may get to the victim right away, yes, but is he the best person? If he makes a mistake, he could be sued by the victim (or victim's family). Who would want to deal with that?

The other thing worth mentioning is the high number of people who are killed/injured while practicing aerial rescues. Please, friends, be safe while practicing!

Nickrosis

 

[Bradley]

Viking, you brought up some good points about civilian rescuer liability that I have not gotten around to talking about yet. Local entities and scene commanders are very reluctant to use the best method for the job if there is the possibility of being liable for another injury.

Tom, one of the things that I have witnessed first hand is compartment syndrome in a patient that had a pine top (approx 1000 lbs) twisted in his lanyard. I relieved the weight slowly to lessen the effects of his own toxic fluids flooding his system, but he still passed out and was flown by helicopter to the trauma center. So you're right, getting him to the ground quick wasn't the best thing for him. It would seem to me that if some of these victims had a climb line with them or even another sling they could tie themselves off relatively quickly and cut their lanyard with their saw. I understand the criteria for patient care due to the situation at hand and most any fire/emergency personnel would too, but access is what I'm referring to most.

Greenguy, I sympathise, hopefully those days are numbered, at least in the Metro Atlanta area due to increased training equipment.

My squad trains hard everyday in any number of rescue situations with rope applications being our main focus. One of the problems is that most of these guys (and tree guys are no different) have only been taught one way to do things and are extremely reluctant to change or learn new techniques and ideas. Not many have rope or height experience outside structured courses where the instructor is some sort of self proclaimed "guru" who teaches doom and gloom if this rule or that is not followed to the letter. Not every situation is the same as a controlled classroom scenario. These instructors teach a "do as I say" curriculum and don't get into the how's and why's of the matter.

I appreciate these responses and would like to hear any more!

Steve

 

[greenguy]

I don't know all the in and outs of liability on rescueing someone. To me most climbers know what aerial rescue involves especially if they have attended any kind of tree climbing competition. The industry standard is to stop bleeding if you can after reaching the climber then support them the best you can and bring them down smoothly. Then hopefully the paramedics will be their then. I am lucky to work where everyone know how to rescue someone from a tree. I have been pinned before the wind kicked up and blew the top over on my safety. That was not a fun thing the top was not very big probable around 200 pounds.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Greenguy wrote:

The industry standard is to stop bleeding if you
can after reaching the climber then support them the best you can and bring
them down smoothly. Then hopefully the paramedics will be their then.

If you're speaking of the arbo industry, there is no "standard" for AR. What you are saying here is the impression that most arbos get from attending competitions or EHAP trainings. Our industry needs to go outside and have experts in the emergency services let us know what we should be teaching arbos.

The current scenario that's supposed to be used for the AR event in the TCC is that the EMT is on site with an ambulance. The rescuer has been instructed to bring the patient to the ground. There is not supposed to be any first aid requirements of the climber. Time and speed is not a factor except that the patient must be ready for the EMTs within four minutes. Don't mix up speed and haste.

When I've talked with friends who work in the EMS industry about AR their advice is no different than when an accident happesn on the ground, stabilize in place and wait until the EMTs are on site to move the patient. The time to move is when you can't stabilize the ABCs in place. If the rescuer doesn't have any first aid training they might decide to move the patient and aggravate the injuries.

Tom

 

[tshanefreeman]

Depending on how the injured climbing is connected to the tree or life-line will directly translate into the rescue attempt.

One technique that comes to my mind is:

If the climber is working high above, connected in the traditional hip-thrusting style (single rope looped up and over a limb and connected with some sort of friction hitch), and becomes decapacitated, but still somewhat responsive, the rescuers/groundmen can rig up a port-a-wrap system, figure 8 descender, or even a Munter's Hitch on a single carabiener at the base of the tree, loop the tail of his/her climbing line, call to the injured climber to release the snap on their friction hitch or split tail system, and then be lowered to the ground. Keeping in mind that the rope must be of sufficient length to allow for complete lowering.................too short and you have escalated the problem.

Such a technique saves time in that no one has to climb and waste precious time rigging in the victim. In only a few minute the person can be on their way down! But if the person becomes unresponsive, a climber could ascend and still unhook their attachment, allowing the same rescue to be implimented.

Keeping in mind that this only works in particular situations.

 

[Nickrosis]

That's the technique that I was first taught. It's another fine reason for carrying a sharp knife with you at all times.

Some have mentioned climbing up the victim's tail.... I personally am frightened of this idea because of the movement you could put on the victim and the potential for the line to fail, and the list goes on...

Secured free climb or setting a line above the victim would be my preferred route.

Nickrosis

 

[greenguy]

Maybe what I was saying is not a written standard. The fact remains you can not put a backboard on an unconsious climber hanging of an 80ft stub. If the emt's are on site why do you have to say call 911 and give them our location. The response time on emt's is longer that it would take to make a rescue. I was tought that if you are going up to bring someone down and they have a bad bleeding problem. put on a turnicate then bring them down. I don't know where most of you work at but if i'm climbing a tree your not going to get me down with a fire truck. You can not use cpr in a tree the answer is bring the climber down so that you can secure the victim.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

The fact remains you can not
put a backboard on an unconsious climber hanging of an 80ft stub.

***Agreed. How many participants on this thread know how to backboard on the ground?

If the emt's
are on site why do you have to say call 911 and give them our location.

***Are you speaking of the AR event for the TCC? IF so, they are using a scenario that was discontinued a while ago. The TCC/AR event is not supposed to simulate anything but the ability of a climber to get to a ptient and get them to the ground with skill and haste.

The
response time on emt's is longer that it would take to make a rescue. I was
tought that if you are going up to bring someone down and they have a bad
bleeding problem. put on a turnicate then bring them down.

***When were you taught to use a tourniquet? I've never heard that advice from any instructor that I've taken a class from. Direct pressure and elevation are the methods that have been used in the classes that I've taken.

You can not use cpr in a tree the answer is bring the climber down so
that you can secure the victim.

***Agreed. That is what I meant in the previous post about differentiating from a failure of the ABCs. That changes everything.

Tom

 

[coydog]

tom,
you started an interesting thread some months back about research that was being conducted( I think by cavers) concerning trauma induced by hanging in a saddle for long periods of time, particularly if unconcious. Maybe it would be a good thread to resurrect.