internal temps

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klickitatsacket

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Does any one know what the internal temperatures in the cylinder of a working chainsaw? At what temperature is there a melt down of the piston? I am only looking for an average as I know there are many variables. I can take external measurements but just wondering if any one knew of the internal measurements.
 
Dean, aluminum gets pretty soft @ 1100 degrees F, @ 1300 you will paint the muffler silver and be having a very bad day! Dont really know if you can get a saw that hot but I know you can a 400 cummins diesel
 
Internal combustion temperatures for the average saw are probably around 1000 degrees F, if you lean further you can get them higher than the melting point of aluminum. Peak exhaust gas temperature for normally aspirated engine at sea level is approx 1500 degrees F. But this doesnt mean you will melt your cylinder. The piston/cylinder will dissipate the heat (in most cases, at least for a while) faster than the heat can melt the aluminum. I am speaking strickly from a theoretical standpoint and am not in any way recommending that a saw be run that lean.

If you want to test it at home buy a exhaust gas temperature gage and thermocouple and install them in your muffler as close to the exhaust port as possible and in the stream of exhaust gasses. You could then use this data to calculate your internal combustion temperatures.
 
After rereading my post is seems as if the leaner you go the hotter things get, which is true to a point. The hottest temp is with a mixture of 14.7:1 anything leaner than that an you will have a cooler burning lean mixture.
 
14.7:1 is that fuel mix to air ratio? Is the 14.7:1 based on a 50:1 fuel /oil mix? How does the fuel / oil ratio effect that ratio? Knowing that a heavier fuel has more energy per volume...Would a thicker mix ratio with a combustable oil give more HP at these kind of lean conditions? bvaught if you have the time and want to talk engines send me your Phone # in the PM and I will give you a call on my dime.
 
As you have previously alluded to in Walker mufflers http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=22311&page=3&pp=15

I've been busy researching the very subject in relation to insulating the internals from combustion heat...How cool is too cool...no one seems to know...I'm getting close to a logical reasoning and I'll be posting my findings and references for debate shortly
 
Klickitatsacket

My post was not specific to mixed fuels, yes the fact that the mixed fuel has oil in it would allow it to yield more energy per gallon and the actual stoichiometric air/fuel ratio would be slightly higher (more air) for the oil/gas mixture.

I dont think it would yeild more HP to run extra oil at a lean setting(what are we defining as lean?) unless you made major modifications (longer stroke for longer burn time, kinda like a diesel). But at this point I want to know why you are asking? Feel free to call 803-730-8532, preferably after 6pm eastern time.
 
bvaught, thanks. I will try and get a hold of you here in the next few days. I have to make another trip to the see the quacks and am not sure how long they will have me for. The reason I have been asking on some of this, is that I have been playing with some differant ideas and am having some pistons made but need some more information of temperature ranges. The piston in a 2 stroke is the weekest link. It is the one thing that holds back everything else back. I deal with a lot of guys who build the 1/4 scale airplane slot racers. Torque is where it is at for these guys because after the 9500 RPM range they start to loose air speed. (this of course has nothing to do with saws) The thing is though that some of these slot racers have gone to gearing and are running 26,000 RPM in a 2 stroke engine. Now these engines only run for no more than 5 minutes at a time and have to be torn down after each run. Now I know this all sounds a little vague and unrelated, however this does all tie into some ideas that I am playing with that I do not want to discuss in the open for now. ErrolC also let's try and get together on the phone here soon.
 
bvaught said:
After rereading my post is seems as if the leaner you go the hotter things get, which is true to a point. The hottest temp is with a mixture of 14.7:1 anything leaner than that an you will have a cooler burning lean mixture.

I don't know as much about 2 cycles but I can definitely tell you that with gas car engines 14.7:1 is a perfect mixture and as you go leaner it gets hotter.
 
CNYCountry said:
I don't know as much about 2 cycles but I can definitely tell you that with gas car engines 14.7:1 is a perfect mixture and as you go leaner it gets hotter.

This is a common misconception, a little research on the subject will reveal that a mixture leaner than 14.7:1 is indeed a cooler mixture. An "ideal" fuel/air mixture in which both the fuel and the oxygen in the air are completely consumed is called the "stoichiometric" mixture. Anything richer than that and you will get a fuel cooled mixture, and anything leaner than that and you will get an air cooled mixture.

Not to make things confusing, but if you are looking for the highest power setting, and consequently highest cylinder pressures and corresponding highest cylinder temperatures (but slightly cooler exhaust gas temperatures) the mixture you are looking for is in the 13:1 neighborhood.
 
This is my understanding from extensive work with Bosch fuel injection:

14.7:1 is about perfect stoichiometric mixture. At this mixture there is a very small amount of fuel unburned and a very small amount of oxygen that is unused. There is also a small amount of NOX or oxides of nitrogen from the heat of combustion. These levels are such that they can be combined evenly in a three way catylitic converter to form CO2 and H2O, leaving no oxygen, fuel or NOX at all. This is what we look for for a very clean running automotive engine.

Richer and there is less oxygen to combust the fuel, leaving much more unburned and giving you cooler combustion temperatures. But richer to a point gives you slightly more power, at the cost of efficiency and emissions, to around the 13:1 neighborhood, and then power starts to drop off precipitously.

Leaner provides enough oxygen to combust ALL of the fuel. This is why the combustion is hotter. The hotter combustion temperatures are enough to cause reactions that lead to the creation of excessive amounts of odd oxides of other elements in the air, mostly oxides of nitrogen. It's generally agreed that NOX is worse in the air than unburned hydrocarbons, so a lean mixture is actually worse for the air than a rich one. But for economy the fuel injection systems on modern automobile engines are programmed to run very lean in certain situations, like idle and part throttle cruise, for fuel efficiency. This is why you have EGR systems on cars. The small amount of "inert" exhaust gas run back into the intake stream under these conditions cools the very hot lean combustion reaction to inhibit formation of NOX. Not only does lean mixture cause NOX emissions, it causes preignition and detonation, which you hear as ping. Because there is plenty of oxygen to burn all of the fuel, the reaction comes closer to an explosion than a controlled burn and you get detonation. You can hear this as ping if your EGR system is closed off and the fuel injection is still running a leaner mixture. Leaner gives slightly less power.

Obviously if the mixture is grossly lean combustion temperatures are going to cool off, but in the area between 15:1-18:1 or so they are most definitely hotter.

Now, this is based on what Bosch factory manuals say, can you point me to material that would contradict this? I would be curious to read it, would like to learn more if my understanding is not correct.

I have found documentation stating that leaner mixtures burn cooler, but only with natural gas, not gasoline.
 
bvaught said:
Internal combustion temperatures for the average saw are probably around 1000 degrees F, if you lean further you can get them higher than the melting point of aluminum. Peak exhaust gas temperature for normally aspirated engine at sea level is approx 1500 degrees F. But this doesnt mean you will melt your cylinder. The piston/cylinder will dissipate the heat (in most cases, at least for a while) faster than the heat can melt the aluminum. I am speaking strickly from a theoretical standpoint and am not in any way recommending that a saw be run that lean.

The surfaces of the combustion chamber do conduct heat away and therefore cool, but there is some sort of fluid dynamic thing I remember reading about that causes a very thin layer of cooler gasses to lay over all of the surfaces and shield them from direct contact with the combustion process itself. This is why detonation puts holes in pistons, melts cylinders, etc. It is because the explosive nature of leaner mixture detonating is not an orderly burning flame front but instead an explosion, and this disturbs or blows away this thin layer, which conducts the heat to the piston and cylinder and causes melting...

I remember reading something about that in an article about why detonation is so dangerous in airplane engines...
 
fluid dynamic thing I remember reading about that causes a very thin layer of cooler gasses to lay over all of the surfaces and shield them from direct contact with the combustion process itself. This is why detonation puts holes in pistons, melts cylinders, etc. It is because the explosive nature of leaner mixture detonating is not an orderly burning flame front but instead an explosion, and this disturbs or blows away this thin layer, which conducts the heat to the piston and cylinder and causes melting...
Its called the boundry layer and your description of detonations effects on it are spot on.
 
arbor accoster said:
Dean, aluminum gets pretty soft @ 1100 degrees F, @ 1300 you will paint the muffler silver and be having a very bad day! Dont really know if you can get a saw that hot but I know you can a 400 cummins diesel

Yup, 400 cummins (big cam 1) willhandle 1000, maybe 1050 downstream of the turbo for extended time periods. This should be (in theory) about 150-200 cooler than upstream of the turbo. I almost always burnt valves before pistons though. Once the valve went,(with pieces coming off) there was always a set of cracks in the piston top that matched the spray pattern of the injectors. the only time a piston went first was due to a bad injector.

Ever try ceramics? it was supposed to be the new "hot ticket" when I parked the truck.
 
bvaught said:
CNYCountry
I would be glad, a few years ago my perception was nearly identical to yours. The best info I have found is contained in the FAA handbook for Aviation Maintenance Technicians. I will research this book and get the proper title for you. Meanwhile try this article titled;
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html.

Link doesn't work right now, I will keep trying, I will be interested to read.

What I don't understand is how NOX production is higher in leaner mixtures, doesn't that mean hotter combustion?
 
average joe said:
Its called the boundry layer and your description of detonations effects on it are spot on.

And that's the thing, proper combustion is plenty hot enough to melt aluminum and get steel real soft, if it weren't for that layer internal combustion engines would never work. I remember exhaust gas from a stoich gasoline/air mixture should be about 1400°F, plenty hot to mess with even ferrous alloys. The combustion event itself is much hotter, many thousands of degrees IIRC.
 
Question about this boundry layer? I will research this a little on my own as well, but the question that comes to mind first is: Does the texture on the top of the piston have anything to do with the boundry layer? I notice particularly on Stihl pistons that there are concentric rings in the top of the piston. Is this to help in creating or maintaining the boundry layer? I have been polishing the tops of my pistons on a lot of my modified saws. Mostly this has been done to help with flow and to keep carbon formations from sticking as easy. I have not run into any problems with the top of the pistons erroding , but am I stripping the advantage away when I polish out the rings?

While I am at it. I see a few saws (stock) that have severe errosion on the exhaust side of the piston crown. Does any one know the casue of this? EHP do you have any opinions?
 
klickitatsacket said:
Question about this boundry layer? I will research this a little on my own as well, but the question that comes to mind first is: Does the texture on the top of the piston have anything to do with the boundry layer? I notice particularly on Stihl pistons that there are concentric rings in the top of the piston. Is this to help in creating or maintaining the boundry layer? I have been polishing the tops of my pistons on a lot of my modified saws. Mostly this has been done to help with flow and to keep carbon formations from sticking as easy. I have not run into any problems with the top of the pistons erroding , but am I stripping the advantage away when I polish out the rings?

While I am at it. I see a few saws (stock) that have severe errosion on the exhaust side of the piston crown. Does any one know the casue of this? EHP do you have any opinions?

What I get from this is that the smoother the surfaces the better:

http://www.sacskyranch.com/deton.htm said:
During detonation the almost instantaneous ignition of the fuel/air mixture causes such a rapid pressure wave that shock waves pound against the insides of the combustion chamber and piston. These shock waves produce the knocking sound in your automobile engine but are not heard in our more noisy aircraft engines. Shock waves that are strong enough to mechanically "ping" the walls of the combustion chamber are strong enough to sweep away any unburned boundary layer of fuel/air mixture near the metal surfaces of the combustion chamber.

Without a boundary layer protecting the aluminum piston, the surfaces are exposed to the combustion flame which melts through the piston. As we mentioned earlier, melting occurs on the edge of the piston next to the cylinder wall where pressure waves reflecting off the wall combine and amplify the pressure at specific locations. Sharp bends in the metal such as at the edge of the piston and along valve cut-outs in high compression pistons are difficult for boundary conditions to provide protection and are usually first damaged by detonation.

I'd love to know why they use concentric rings on top, I've never seen that on any other type of piston, admittedly I've only really worked with 4 cycle engines any amount...
 

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