Trx250r180
Saw polisher
Customer of mine used to log with horses ,he still does once in a while for recreation ,but prefers shovels and yarders now .
Logging with oxen or horses
- Thread starter NateleeWi
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windthrown
361 Junkie
Contradiction in terms there. Low impact logging with horses, oxen and mules. I lived on a 105 acre timber tract with my ex in Southern Oregon (where I was when I joined AS). That was horse logged circa 1900 and again in the 1940s, and there were still obvious evidence of the horse tracks, soil compaction, and erosion as a result. It still is not pretty, some 100 years later. The problem with horses and oxen (educated cows) is that they put a huge amount of weight on very small areas under their feet. They leave post holes all over the place. Also here in the west it is pretty well known that horse property is pretty bad when it comes to environmental issues, mainly from runoff from horse manure. You have to pasture the horses someplace when they are not working in logging teams, feed them, and deal with the manure piles. I have tractored out tons of manure into huge steaming piles myself, and we had to dig barrier trenches around the barn to keep the nitrogen from running into and damaging the streams there.
I know that it may sound contradictory, but it is actually better using the new tractors and logging equipment with wide treads and tires that go in and out pretty lightly and do far less damage. I have studied this and seen this myself in great detail. I have been through and to hundreds of logging locations, timber stands and clear cuts in the west. Best practices are actually quite different than what is being done for the most part. I have a certificate in silviculture from OSU, but the best way to plant and manage tree stands I learned from a guy named George Fenn in Elkton, Oregon. He died back in 2009, but he preached planting multiple species of trees and using newer light treading harvesting methods and equipment. He had a 240 acre timber tract that he dragged me all over, as well as his 400 acres of pastures. He showed me 1:1 comparisons of his stands to the logging company stands around his property which were not nearly as robust. He had planting to cut periods down to about 40 years, with thinning at 20 years. He was quite an amazing character, really. Timber was his second career he was an inventor and engineer before that.
Anyway, besides dealing with and managing horses in pastures and feeding them, you have to get them to and from the logging sites, you have to train them in teams and get the logging done, and you have to compete with logging companies that have machinery that can do the work cheaper and faster, and with the right equipment, and can leave less of an impact on the environment. Been there, lived that. Pretty much every property around me now is a timber tract, has horses on it, or both. No logging is done by horses here though. Its all skidders, yarders and trucks. Diesel is king.
Windthrown, it would depend on soil types, topography, and amount of precipitation. I've been around only the one guy, but that was in AZ, on flat ground, during conditions that were too wet to use a skidder. It was a beautiful job of logging, and I saw less impact on the ground. The only caveat was decking. He couldn't deck logs with one horse and no rigged up old timey system. But roads were too mucky to get trucks in anyway. The tree size was small, that's why one draft horse was adequate.
Different areas of the country have different ways of doing things that are appropriate for that specific area. If I learned anything from working in different states, that was the main lesson.
Different areas of the country have different ways of doing things that are appropriate for that specific area. If I learned anything from working in different states, that was the main lesson.
I worked for a horse logging outfit for several years, Shires, Belgians, and Percherons. We used a hand made logging cart it lifted the front of the log when the horses pulled. Horses can't carry much weight but they can pull massive loads if they can get the load moving. This means two 20" logs 16' long on flat smooth ground. Your team will eat 2 bales a day along with a couple cans of grain. They need shade in the summer and a windbreak or shelter in the winter. If you hire a farrier he will probably charge you $200.00 to shoe the team plus shoes. If your horses spend a couple months on pasture then they will need nearly a month of conditioning before they can work.
The biggest obstacles are training the horses and training the driver.
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The biggest obstacles are training the horses and training the driver.
:
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
windthrown
361 Junkie
They horse logged Oregon for years with high wheels to drag or haul logs around with.
This is a typical high wheel 'skidder':
This is a horse team using tandem high wheels to haul logs:
This is a typical high wheel 'skidder':
This is a horse team using tandem high wheels to haul logs:
I've worked with a B.I.L. who keeps steers and work/trains them on a regular basis for exhibition and pulling competitions in Maine. Much of New England 4-H keeps steers as their project and county fairs for show. These animals can do incredible work and I have great respect for those that maintain the tradition. All that said for the rest of us its much more practical to turn the key than muck out a stall.
2Dogs I dought you could get a team shod for $200 plus shoes. Cold shoers get a low of $80 to a high of $100 for saddle horses. Hot shoers get considerably more. I damn sure wouldn't want to shoe a draft cold. I bet the cost would be around $400 to shoe the team. You can buy ready made shoes but you still have to make them fit the foot. They are a hell of a lot bigger and heavier than saddle horse shoes and the nails are about twice the size. Then you should draw clips to help hold them on when pulling hard. Think I would look for a small skidder lol.
Frank Savage
ArboristSite Operative
Depends on terrain. On flat land, horses can work on their own between choker setter and chaser. Sometimes in the mountains, it is a must. For some time, I was raised in the mountains and seen there horses working on their own. The most extreme thing I´ve seen was 45° to 52° slope (well, short portions even a bit steeper), that had to be selectively cut, the leade was set uphill only for horses. Not fun for the fallers. Then a horse was led from the top of the unit, he was shown the log and walked right and all along it, hitched up by long (some 25´) pullrope and told to go. From little gentle pull as to make the log (like 6"-18", 15´to 50´long) moving in very lazy walk, he was almost in galoop when finishing to the end of shalow gully in the slope. On last +/- 20yds, he pulled the butt slightly to the left, which made the upper end of the log starting to roll, run atop of the right bank of the gully, sending the log flying fiercefully, perpendicular to the direction of movement, on the pullrope with 4 to 6 swivels stacked in it. Three trees were left there as "stop-spars", the log smacked into them, falled on the ground and the horse (still in movement, sliding like in slide race) then pulled it over the edge of 20´, 60° bank down on the road. The log usualy ran up the deck on its own. Weight of the logs differed, lenght differed greatly-and the ballancing as how to hit the stop-spars was absolutely essential to stop the log, but ballance it so it needed just a little to run over the edge of the bank in one smooth, stop-less motion as the horse was sliding by. There were three horses running this unit, all of one owner. He was the kind of hell-knows-how-old (sure 70+, but knotty and tough as gordic knot on steel chain) stubby, sneazy man as rude, half-mouthed and ignorant to people around as you can imagine, but sure he was the most caring, gentle and comprehensive creature once one of those horses was in question.
It was the most dangerous, awesome thing I´ve ever seen with horses involved. Any mistake on their judgement as when to start pulling the butt to the left, the log would not run atop the bank of the gulley, would stay on course, fly over the road like a missile and end up in a stream some 60´below-towing the horse through the air. Once the horse started the pull too early, lost the tension in the pullorpe and the log ended up too far back as to be easily slid down the bank to the road. He obviously knew it is going wrong, because he was working the hell as to slide the bank as slow as he could-still there was a noticeable jerk when he was stopped by the harness, just below the bank. The pullrope was intentionaly longer than the bank slope, sure for this eventuality. Mostly, if ya do anything abrupt to a horse, he is nervous at least, so to say. This one? Calm as lead billet, just his ears and eyes were saying "f**ck, screwed up, could have been ugly. Sorry guys" and waited until unhooked, rehooked with longer rope and then just pulled the log over the edge as nothing happened.
They wer some mix breed about the size of small quarter. But I think most quarter champions are weak and feeble pussies compared to them, no pun or disgrace indeed...
Sorry for OT, just a story from when I was 5 or 6 old, still very bright and detailed floating in memories (albeit I´m not old). Have no serious experience with flatlands, except that heavier-framed breeds are desirable. The bigger the hoofs, the better-ground pressure, ya know? Fun aside, even horses can make a helluva mess from the skidtrail and it seems to me that small-hoofed ones are more prone to split front wall of the hoof when they badly hit a rock in the mud while in full pull...
It was the most dangerous, awesome thing I´ve ever seen with horses involved. Any mistake on their judgement as when to start pulling the butt to the left, the log would not run atop the bank of the gulley, would stay on course, fly over the road like a missile and end up in a stream some 60´below-towing the horse through the air. Once the horse started the pull too early, lost the tension in the pullorpe and the log ended up too far back as to be easily slid down the bank to the road. He obviously knew it is going wrong, because he was working the hell as to slide the bank as slow as he could-still there was a noticeable jerk when he was stopped by the harness, just below the bank. The pullrope was intentionaly longer than the bank slope, sure for this eventuality. Mostly, if ya do anything abrupt to a horse, he is nervous at least, so to say. This one? Calm as lead billet, just his ears and eyes were saying "f**ck, screwed up, could have been ugly. Sorry guys" and waited until unhooked, rehooked with longer rope and then just pulled the log over the edge as nothing happened.
They wer some mix breed about the size of small quarter. But I think most quarter champions are weak and feeble pussies compared to them, no pun or disgrace indeed...
Sorry for OT, just a story from when I was 5 or 6 old, still very bright and detailed floating in memories (albeit I´m not old). Have no serious experience with flatlands, except that heavier-framed breeds are desirable. The bigger the hoofs, the better-ground pressure, ya know? Fun aside, even horses can make a helluva mess from the skidtrail and it seems to me that small-hoofed ones are more prone to split front wall of the hoof when they badly hit a rock in the mud while in full pull...
NateleeWi
ArboristSite Member
Thanks everyone. Yeah. I'm still not sure. You have to understand that up here logging is huge and most companies have reps and are known for what they do. Trying to break out in the market I would have to do something different. A reason why they'd pick my business over someone else. I need to stand out. Can just be another guy with a Skidder and chainsaw. I'm sure there lots that would do it cheaper and faster with more help than I could offer. But that's why thinking about having my own niche of the industry up here would be a must.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
You could wear a loin cloth and sing Bee Gee's songs while felling too. Doesn't mean you'll get any more business or make enough money to survive doing it. 
bitzer
******** Timber Expert
Make some calls to the mills. You might be surprised. I was about 4 years ago. Nobody wants to handcut big timber anymore. Thats the niche!
NateleeWi
ArboristSite Member
Around me it does matter. People live a certain way We are traditional and most people would rather have a local boy come in and charge more and take longer as long as they take care with the land. I get brainerd ain't that far away but in towns of less than a thousand people how you conduct business matters. But I think I will sing bee gees. That sounds better than the abba I've been singing.You could wear a loin cloth and sing Bee Gee's songs while felling too. Doesn't mean you'll get any more business or make enough money to survive doing it.
NateleeWi
ArboristSite Member
Still want to do it the old way but the wife did mention getting a tractor and a farmi winch or have someone build me a forwarding trailer with an a frame to still do the smaller scale thing. I do not want a skidder or large forwarder. I actually live next to and worked at prentice forestry equipment which is now cat so have seen all these machines come through and not a damn one is sold even remotely close. Most people are using 80s skidders and harvesters and just making a mess of a piece of paradise.
brainerd, is not to far away and there is a space for "low impact loggers" as well smaller equipment/horse's which ever you choose has it's ups and downs like all things! think of what you want and go for it! fast pace high production is not for the small land owner looking to have their forest product harvested this way! speaking for myself as a small lot, low impact logger that keeps busy all year tells me its out there, it's just up to you to find it an make it work!!!!! slow and easy at first to build a rep. is the best salesman to get the work done by show. good luck in you venture!
That last sentence disturbs me and gives all loggers a bad name. It is what the anti-logging folks say and is just not true. Low impact logging is a misnomer to begin with. As stated in an earlier bit, an unthinking logger can make an impact no matter what he/she uses. Let's start with the falling. To be "low Impact" or I call it a good logger, you have to be able to fall trees directionally and not beat up/break/scar any leave trees. Are you able to do that?
Next is the skidding. Can you figure out where to skid logs and cause the least amount of damage? Hopefully, you have directionally felled the trees so you can pull them out with the least amount of damage. Can you keep from rutting and tearing things up? A forwarder can do a nice job and run on top of the slash, but it has to go straight.
A good operator can do an excellent, "low impact" job on a D-9 with a humongus blade on the front. I've seen that done. A poor operator can't even get around without ripping things up on a small Kubota, or ATV or small skidder. It takes experience and skill.
Then we have hauling. This used to drive me crazy in Wisconsin. Wisconsin log trucks are not our nice, built for the mountains piggy back style trucks. Wisconsin log trucks are basically flat beds with racks on them. They take 40 acres to turn around in. To me, that's not low impact, but I am spoiled by our PNW style of small landings. Equipment here can work on a road turnout--landing and loading logs on a very small piece of ground. A huge landing is not low impact.
Logging "looks" bad. There's ways to make the final product more pleasant to the eye but that is an additional cost. Logging mimics natural disturbances and those do not look like city parks. Out here, a season of brush growth makes it "look" better. How the area looks does not necessarily equate to how healthy the land is, and people just don't get that. That's the problem with clearcuts. They may be sound forestry, but they "look" bad and therefore must be bad.
Rant over.
Oh, and what is your logging experience? Have you worked in the industry?
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
Nate, I was just saying that being different in and of itself isn't necessarily going to get you the business. I bought a tractor and a Wallenstein winch this year because the way I want my woods thinned/harvested isn't commercially viable and I too don't want big machinery in my woods. My neighbor's place was high graded 2 winters ago, and what they left will never be worth anything for another 60-80 years, if ever. They left the trash standing to choke out the regen, so the trees that will grow big from the open canopy are all junk.
Being small and low impact is a great option for people who want habitat work done for deer hunting, grouse, etc. I wish you the best!
Being small and low impact is a great option for people who want habitat work done for deer hunting, grouse, etc. I wish you the best!
Low impact logging means different things to different people. To those that don't have a lot of experience or any real knowledge about logging it might be an unrealistic mental image of the land being perfectly healed and groomed and looking like a city park as soon as the job is done. That doesn't happen.
Even low impact logging...however you define it...is going to create some environmental disturbance. People with no logging experience will create more damage than they'd planned on.
Even low impact logging...however you define it...is going to create some environmental disturbance. People with no logging experience will create more damage than they'd planned on.
Being small and "low impact" and cutting for habitat work does not mean it will look like a park or all tidy and neat. You still have to deal with the Time Is Money aspect and can't spend a lot of time dinking around to make things "look" nice if you plan to make a profit.
You get the logging job that you let happen. Your neighbors maybe should have hired a reputable forester.
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