Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
Sorry I didn't give a dissertation on all that I plan to use the machine for from the start.
Low impact pre-commercial thinning with a skidsteer - am I nuts?
- Thread starter Jim Timber
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1270d
ArboristSite Guru
Would it be easier to have someone come freeze a road in the winter and cut it for you. Poof, done.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
Of course it would be easier to pay someone else to keep the value of my wood.
1270d
ArboristSite Guru
ok, didnt mean to pull up your panties, but sometimes the most cost effective way is to hire professionals. we show up, cut your wood and you're left with a check and a whole bunch of extra time you wouldn't have had. of course you probably thought about that.
How do you freeze a road? It seems like this year would be good for that.
1270d
ArboristSite Guru
A dozer goes through, pushes trees (or stumps) out of the way, roughly leveling as it goes. Some humps windrows and small ruts are ok and help the frost get into the ground. After letting it stiffen up a bit (maybe overnight if its below zero a ways) it gets bladed level and all the frozen chunks tracked into the ground. let it stiffen a bit more and start running pickups and equipment in, and a couple more days and it should be truck ready.
the stumps can be left in also if they're not real big, just freeze around them. Later, a large dozer makes a pass shearing them all off. (black spruce swamp)
90% of the winter work here is freeze roads.
the stumps can be left in also if they're not real big, just freeze around them. Later, a large dozer makes a pass shearing them all off. (black spruce swamp)
90% of the winter work here is freeze roads.
1270d
ArboristSite Guru
possibly the OP could freeze his way in with a snowmobile and do his thinning in the winter? not a whole lot of snow in the Brainerd Lakes area usually so a skid loader with tracks might do ok.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
Only 3 acres is low. My swamp never freezes solid either. It's spring fed and still running beneath the ice right through where the trail is. I'm not sure where the water comes up either. Could be my lot, could be the neighbors.
I've taken as little as 2 logs in, not super profitable, but they did buy them. The mills here don't really care how the logs get there as long as they look good, and are in lengths and diameters they can use
That post right there is why gologit was missed and why I hang around here all day.
Ok jim I'm going to say this once and be done with it, a year or so ago you asked about using a backhoe for logging, we shot ya down on that, then you wanted to build some road across a swamp, we ruined your plans there. Now you want to use a skid steer to log with... among other things. I'm trying really hard not to sound like a jerk but you really should listen to what these folks have to say.
For my money and what I would want to do with 80 acres a mid sized tractor with front loader, detachable backhoe, logging winch, and various implements of destruction would be the #1 ticket, the versatility of a tractor is amazing.
If I where to straight up log it then a small skidder, like my Deere 440a, get in and be done with it in a few monthes, then sell it off and use the money to get a tractor or whatever. You may scoff at the size and "impact" of a skidder but believe me in the right hands you would never know it was in there after just a few monthes. Somewhere I have pictures of a job I did that started life looking more like an amazon jungle, and by the end of summer it looked more like a park. All done with a skidder, and a few small brush fires...
If you stay the course (and I hope your reading this with both eyes and mind open) and go with a skid steer, you likely to spend $10,000 on a machine you hope to pay for itself through logging, that I can almost 100% guarantee will spend more time stuck on or in something than actually working, meanwhile you will probably have some kind of machine payment hanging over your head, not to mention parts, that at that slow of production you will have no chance of making. Take it for what it is.
As far as tractors getting beat up in the woods, that was more of a just be aware that that shiny new New Holland is not going to be very shiny at the end of 6 months of logging. Probably a few dents, and a few broken lights, maybe some JB weld holding the oil pan together, but it will still be running and has a far better chance of being payed off.
For my money and what I would want to do with 80 acres a mid sized tractor with front loader, detachable backhoe, logging winch, and various implements of destruction would be the #1 ticket, the versatility of a tractor is amazing.
If I where to straight up log it then a small skidder, like my Deere 440a, get in and be done with it in a few monthes, then sell it off and use the money to get a tractor or whatever. You may scoff at the size and "impact" of a skidder but believe me in the right hands you would never know it was in there after just a few monthes. Somewhere I have pictures of a job I did that started life looking more like an amazon jungle, and by the end of summer it looked more like a park. All done with a skidder, and a few small brush fires...
If you stay the course (and I hope your reading this with both eyes and mind open) and go with a skid steer, you likely to spend $10,000 on a machine you hope to pay for itself through logging, that I can almost 100% guarantee will spend more time stuck on or in something than actually working, meanwhile you will probably have some kind of machine payment hanging over your head, not to mention parts, that at that slow of production you will have no chance of making. Take it for what it is.
As far as tractors getting beat up in the woods, that was more of a just be aware that that shiny new New Holland is not going to be very shiny at the end of 6 months of logging. Probably a few dents, and a few broken lights, maybe some JB weld holding the oil pan together, but it will still be running and has a far better chance of being payed off.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
I don't know how to respond that will get you to understand where I'm coming from. Every time I try, you think I'm not listening.
Right now I'm not doing anything. I keep saying that, yet it doesn't register.
Right now I'm not doing anything. I keep saying that, yet it doesn't register.
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
If you're going to skid logs, nothing works as well as something that was designed to skid logs.
A skid steer, CTL, or MTL has it's place. Usually found close to the road.
In a pinch, a CTL can be used for other things in the woods. But it's a long, hard, slow go.
If you insist on hauling your own logs, this is what you want. But, there's that long, hard, slow go again. There's no profit in hauling 12 to 1500 bd. ft. very far.
If you plan on getting finished with 85 acres anytime in the next several years, you need to invest in some equipment. 85 acres will not pay for it. You would be money ahead to hire someone to do it, and then go buy a skid steer to play with.
This place ain't changed a bit, has it?
A skid steer, CTL, or MTL has it's place. Usually found close to the road.
In a pinch, a CTL can be used for other things in the woods. But it's a long, hard, slow go.
If you insist on hauling your own logs, this is what you want. But, there's that long, hard, slow go again. There's no profit in hauling 12 to 1500 bd. ft. very far.
If you plan on getting finished with 85 acres anytime in the next several years, you need to invest in some equipment. 85 acres will not pay for it. You would be money ahead to hire someone to do it, and then go buy a skid steer to play with.
This place ain't changed a bit, has it?
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
Too much collateral damage.
But at least you've finally seen what I planned to use the skidsteer for.
But at least you've finally seen what I planned to use the skidsteer for.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
So, if you were contracted to do a job on a property that had a 7 ton per axle weight limit on the road to it - wouldn't that gouge your profits?
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
Everything you do will eat into your profits...if there are any profits to begin with. You called this a pre-commercial thinning, and generally I get paid to do a pre-commercial thin, and can have salvage rights to any wood that I want to haul off. If it's really a pre-commercial thin then there won't be many, if any saw logs to haul off, you're just talking firewood. It's hard to make a profit thinning for the firewood.
7 ton per axle limit on the road, you would be way under gunned with a gooseneck and pickup. 4 axles could legally haul 28 tons (56,000 lbs.). No thank you! There are trucks that will fit that bill. I hire other people who have the equipment I need when I need to.
7 ton per axle limit on the road, you would be way under gunned with a gooseneck and pickup. 4 axles could legally haul 28 tons (56,000 lbs.). No thank you! There are trucks that will fit that bill. I hire other people who have the equipment I need when I need to.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
Well, outside of that road, you'd have to bring a loaded truck down a 20ish degree hill to get out of the property and that crosses two neighbors land where one of them might need to get paid to allow use of their driveway. I'm still working on that issue.
Maybe I do know what I'm up against after all? I can make 40K selling firewood out of this property on the 425 cords of wood that likely needs removal (that's after expenses). There's a decent chunk of aspen in there too (I haven't calculated how much yet). I have the 5.5 acres and a couple other spots that have good saw wood and maybe veneer grade logs. It's not all little stuff.
I would murder someone if they turned my woods into a "park like" setting. I have foxes living in multiple places on the property and I will go to lengths to ensure they remain. Wiping out my underbrush, even for a couple-few years is unacceptable. Big machinery need not apply. I won't allow it.
So, once again, I don't need to make a profit on this. I only need to recover my expenses.
Maybe I do know what I'm up against after all?
I can make 40K selling firewood out of this property on the 425 cords of wood that likely needs removal (that's after expenses). There's a decent chunk of aspen in there too (I haven't calculated how much yet). I have the 5.5 acres and a couple other spots that have good saw wood and maybe veneer grade logs. It's not all little stuff.I would murder someone if they turned my woods into a "park like" setting. I have foxes living in multiple places on the property and I will go to lengths to ensure they remain. Wiping out my underbrush, even for a couple-few years is unacceptable. Big machinery need not apply. I won't allow it.
So, once again, I don't need to make a profit on this. I only need to recover my expenses.
OK, you keep feeding us a little bit at a time.
First, a terminology lesson. A precommercial thin is just that. It is thinning the trees to get them to a commercial, merchantable size. You will not make money doing a real precommercial thin. You will pay out money, but the intent is to get the remaining trees to a better size. We precommercial thin small Christmas tree sized trees. There is no value in them. They are left on the ground to rot.
Next thing. Don't log it at all if you don't want the underbrush smooshed for even a year. Don't touch it. It isn't possible to skid logs with anything except a helicopter and not affect the underbrush. Well, maybe if you have six feet of snow that will hold up, but then you'll have to shovel out the trees to cut or you'll have 6 foot stumps and I have a feeling you aren't going to want to shovel out trees.
The only thing to do is to pre plan. LAY OUT YOUR UNIT BEFORE CUTTING ANY TREES. Pick out where you don't mind the brush getting damaged. Flag it in. Fall (not drop) your trees at an angle, butts towards your skid trail so you can pull the logs out. Pull the logs. If you drive up to every log with whatever your skid steer has, you are going to smash more brush. STAY on the skid trails. We terrible federal agency people plan on allowing 10% of the ground to be "disturbed" by skid trails and give an additional 5 to 10% disturbance for landings. That's in the BMPs (Best Management Practices). Does your forester friend have a little manual on Michigan BMPs?
I do not think your corduroy road through the swamp would hold up to skidding logs at all. You might be able to get a forwarder over it. I've never seen logs skidded over what looks like a semi-floating little road of logs laid out. Let me know if and how it holds up if you do take log turns across it. WE used to put more than a single layer of logs into a creek to build a trucking road over it, but dirt and rocks were bladed over the deck of logs so it would stay put. That's a log culvert and the Forest Service doesn't allow them anymore. Think of a deck of logs going into a ditch to bring it level. That's what was done. The logs are pulled out after the need for the road is over.
Also, I don't understand how you can have a rifle range, if you want wildlife to hang out on your place. I know they get accustomed to new things, but shooting would tend to make for nervous wildlife.
Have I left out any realities of logging here? I don't know much about marketing.
I'd suggest you get a real LOCAL genuine operations savvy forester and logger to walk the area with you. Pay them. You are already spending time trying to weasel out info from us, and not liking what you are hearing. Be humble. Forestry and logging are more than just going in and wrasseling trees out of the woods. There is some finesse and skill to it and you don't have that yet.
First, a terminology lesson. A precommercial thin is just that. It is thinning the trees to get them to a commercial, merchantable size. You will not make money doing a real precommercial thin. You will pay out money, but the intent is to get the remaining trees to a better size. We precommercial thin small Christmas tree sized trees. There is no value in them. They are left on the ground to rot.
Next thing. Don't log it at all if you don't want the underbrush smooshed for even a year. Don't touch it. It isn't possible to skid logs with anything except a helicopter and not affect the underbrush. Well, maybe if you have six feet of snow that will hold up, but then you'll have to shovel out the trees to cut or you'll have 6 foot stumps and I have a feeling you aren't going to want to shovel out trees.
The only thing to do is to pre plan. LAY OUT YOUR UNIT BEFORE CUTTING ANY TREES. Pick out where you don't mind the brush getting damaged. Flag it in. Fall (not drop) your trees at an angle, butts towards your skid trail so you can pull the logs out. Pull the logs. If you drive up to every log with whatever your skid steer has, you are going to smash more brush. STAY on the skid trails. We terrible federal agency people plan on allowing 10% of the ground to be "disturbed" by skid trails and give an additional 5 to 10% disturbance for landings. That's in the BMPs (Best Management Practices). Does your forester friend have a little manual on Michigan BMPs?
I do not think your corduroy road through the swamp would hold up to skidding logs at all. You might be able to get a forwarder over it. I've never seen logs skidded over what looks like a semi-floating little road of logs laid out. Let me know if and how it holds up if you do take log turns across it. WE used to put more than a single layer of logs into a creek to build a trucking road over it, but dirt and rocks were bladed over the deck of logs so it would stay put. That's a log culvert and the Forest Service doesn't allow them anymore. Think of a deck of logs going into a ditch to bring it level. That's what was done. The logs are pulled out after the need for the road is over.
Also, I don't understand how you can have a rifle range, if you want wildlife to hang out on your place. I know they get accustomed to new things, but shooting would tend to make for nervous wildlife.
Have I left out any realities of logging here? I don't know much about marketing.
I'd suggest you get a real LOCAL genuine operations savvy forester and logger to walk the area with you. Pay them. You are already spending time trying to weasel out info from us, and not liking what you are hearing. Be humble. Forestry and logging are more than just going in and wrasseling trees out of the woods. There is some finesse and skill to it and you don't have that yet.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
I asked what I thought was a pretty straight forward question about using a skidsteer to move wood. I got a lot of good reasons not to use a OTT track system and to pony up for a MTL instead. Then I got a bunch of comments about how I'd never make any money doing it and how I'm nuts to think I would, then I had someone actually prove that I could break even doing exactly what I said I was going to try - yet I still get talked down to for wanting to do it.
My trail is just that - a trail. I will never run anything over 10,000# across it. It's built light because there's a chance I'll have to tear it out. That path is the first access which doesn't involve winching a 800# atv for at least 50 feet to get to high ground, and it took a lot of walking 30-50# hunks of wood hundreds of feet to do it. By your own ground pressure numbers, I should have no problem rolling a MTL across it. From there, I can use that to move bigger logs, rock, and sand to fill in the base if I end up making my driveway there. I have permission to do that, and I have silvicultural exemption to do it without permission, but then I'd have to remove it afterwards - something I don't want to do. If I put my driveway there, I will have to pay wetland bank credits and would rather not have another access into the property if it can be avoided.
Rifle range is for my personal use. The critters are fine with me shooting elsewhere on the property. I have two dens not far from where I shoot rifles now.
Pre-commercial is the right term. I have crop trees I want to release. Lots and lots of them. My stand is to the point the canopy is closed in several areas with 15+ DBH trees. I want to give them a boost and get them up to 20-24 before I croak or cut them for use as lumber or possibly sell them as veneer. I'm looking at 24" x 16' oak logs as my basis for wanting askidsteer MTL capable of 3,000# lift, because that's what I expect to be the max typical load put on the mill. I can roll anything bigger up ramps if need be.
I'm friends with everyone at the county. My assessor is even trying to help navigate affordable access to the county roads for me. He also helped put me in the cheapest land classification for taxes.
Btw, the platted road through the swamp was vacated by initiation of my neighbor on the lake side a year ago. I mentioned wanting the township to build it at the hearing, and they removed it instead. Turned out they're not too thrilled with the prospect of filling it in either.
My trail is just that - a trail. I will never run anything over 10,000# across it. It's built light because there's a chance I'll have to tear it out. That path is the first access which doesn't involve winching a 800# atv for at least 50 feet to get to high ground, and it took a lot of walking 30-50# hunks of wood hundreds of feet to do it. By your own ground pressure numbers, I should have no problem rolling a MTL across it. From there, I can use that to move bigger logs, rock, and sand to fill in the base if I end up making my driveway there. I have permission to do that, and I have silvicultural exemption to do it without permission, but then I'd have to remove it afterwards - something I don't want to do. If I put my driveway there, I will have to pay wetland bank credits and would rather not have another access into the property if it can be avoided.
Rifle range is for my personal use. The critters are fine with me shooting elsewhere on the property. I have two dens not far from where I shoot rifles now.
Pre-commercial is the right term. I have crop trees I want to release. Lots and lots of them. My stand is to the point the canopy is closed in several areas with 15+ DBH trees. I want to give them a boost and get them up to 20-24 before I croak or cut them for use as lumber or possibly sell them as veneer. I'm looking at 24" x 16' oak logs as my basis for wanting a
I'm friends with everyone at the county. My assessor is even trying to help navigate affordable access to the county roads for me. He also helped put me in the cheapest land classification for taxes.
Btw, the platted road through the swamp was vacated by initiation of my neighbor on the lake side a year ago. I mentioned wanting the township to build it at the hearing, and they removed it instead. Turned out they're not too thrilled with the prospect of filling it in either.
Then go for it. Let us know how it turns out. Apparently you know something we don't or are able to tweak the system. Please, show us your progress and your methods.
Maybe we can learn from you. Why aren't you posting the video of your corduroy road? Perhaps we could learn construction tips from that?
Why did you even start this thread? Since you have, I challenge you to post pictures of your logging, and give us a detailed account...whether it works out or not.
In fact, maybe we should dredge up this thread once a month to see if you can add anything of interest. Bye bye and happy hobby logging.
Maybe we can learn from you. Why aren't you posting the video of your corduroy road? Perhaps we could learn construction tips from that?
Why did you even start this thread? Since you have, I challenge you to post pictures of your logging, and give us a detailed account...whether it works out or not.
In fact, maybe we should dredge up this thread once a month to see if you can add anything of interest. Bye bye and happy hobby logging.
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well, outside of that road, you'd have to bring a loaded truck down a 20ish degree hill to get out of the property and that crosses two neighbors land where one of them might need to get paid to allow use of their driveway. I'm still working on that issue.
Maybe I do know what I'm up against after all?
I would murder someone if they turned my woods into a "park like" setting. I have foxes living in multiple places on the property and I will go to lengths to ensure they remain. Wiping out my underbrush, even for a couple-few years is unacceptable. Big machinery need not apply. I won't allow it.
So, once again, I don't need to make a profit on this. I only need to recover my expenses.
A "20ish degree hill" is a 37ish % grade, probably not advisable to bring a "loaded" truck down that. You'd be money ahead to skid your wood down that one, for your own safety.
Maybe you don't know either. 40k after expenses on 425 cords? Without disturbing the "underbrush"? I think you'd better go over those numbers again.
If it's not all little stuff, it's not "pre-commercial" it's just a thinning project, or might be classed as a stewardship program. slowp would be more qualified to say what type of project it would be classified than me, I'm just a dumb old thinning contractor.
You seem to have already made up your mind as to what you're going to do. I'm sure that with perseverance you can "get-er-done".
It's really no skin off of my nose if you make money, recover your expenses, or loose your butt. I've given you my opinion so take it for what it's worth to you. The main thing is that you be safe and don't hurt or kill yourself in the process. Good luck, and be careful.
