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ms440 Rebuild
- Thread starter Carolina Diesel
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Matt_M
ArboristSite Member
Will do once I get home and get off the iPhone !
Thanks for that as I wasn't sure how to do it.
Matt
Thanks for that as I wasn't sure how to do it.
Matt
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
both oil seals are now out. i am now going to flush and then attempt to install the new seals. anyone have any last words of advice before i do so? i could use anything anyones got, i've heard this part is really tricky
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Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
UPDATE: I believe I have successfully installed the clutch side seal. I lubed it with 2 stroke oil and then tapped it into place using a 19mm deep well socket. I am not sure how to confirm it is in properly, but it looks to be seated flush, blow the lip on the case, and does not appear damaged. went in fairly easy with light tapping and some minor adjustments at the end.
Both sides are in, and the look like the are in properly, however I must note that it takes a bit more effort to turn the crankshaft, though it does turn freely and sound ok. Is it possible that I installed the seals to deep which is causing the resistance when I try to turn the crankshaft?
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Both sides are in, and the look like the are in properly, however I must note that it takes a bit more effort to turn the crankshaft, though it does turn freely and sound ok. Is it possible that I installed the seals to deep which is causing the resistance when I try to turn the crankshaft?
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Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
I made good progress. I replaced all the seals, piston, cylinder, and everything I was able to. I am able to rotate the crankshaft, but I have to use two hands. There is definitely more resistance now than there was before I replaced the seals. I am thinking I inserted the clutch side seal too deep. I will probably go ahead and order a new one tonight. Below, I have listed the remaining steps I believe i have to completion. I have included a few questions and please let me know if I forgot anything.
-Replace newly installed clutch side oil seal
-Install oil pump, clutch, etc.
-Install flywheel and recoil assembly. Rope does not recoil completely, any tips on fixing this?
-compression test and vacuum test. Any recommended ways to build a vacuum tester?
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-Replace newly installed clutch side oil seal
-Install oil pump, clutch, etc.
-Install flywheel and recoil assembly. Rope does not recoil completely, any tips on fixing this?
-compression test and vacuum test. Any recommended ways to build a vacuum tester?
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I really doubt that you installed the seal too deep and its rubbing the bearing. The seal has about 1/8" between the seals metal housing and the bearing when its sitting flush with the bore in the case.
nmurph
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You probably have the bearings side-loaded. They aren't in line with the axis of the crank. I would put the FW nut on the end of the shaft and give it a few whacks, and take a board and hold it on the clutch end of the crank and whack it a few times. This will usually square everything up. Sometimes you have to back the case bolts off and tap the ends of the crank. Then turn them in a few turns, tap the crank, and repeat until you have it cinched down.
FYI, new bearings and seals are going to feel a little tight. But it sounds like your's are too tight.
FYI, new bearings and seals are going to feel a little tight. But it sounds like your's are too tight.
Dan Forsh
Addicted to ArboristSite
If I've been following this correctly, he hasn't changed the bearings, only the seals. He's not likely to have side loaded the bearings just changing the seals is he?
CD might be worth checking if the service manual gives a dimension for the depth of the seal. I'm not sure it does, but if you can wait a few hours, I can take my vernier gauge to my old crankcase later today and give you an approx depth from that? Shame to have to pull a newly installed seal if you don't have to.
Moparmyway
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Depends on how he removed the clutch, flywheel, seals .......... also installing the seals ...................... a few whacks on the seal/case can send the shaft into a loaded situation from the bench top
Cant hurt to give a couple of love-taps to both sides of the shaft with some wood protecting the important stuff !!
nmurph
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I re-read the thread and I guess I'm confusing it with an 026 rebuild thread as I didn't see any mention of replacing the bearings.
I do have some concern that he may have some shrapnel floating around in the bearings, though they usually just make the crank stop as opposed to making it difficult to spin.
While it is possible to seat the seals so deeply that they bind the crank, it is nearly impossible to seat them that deeply and not have them pop into the crankcase. If the seal lip is pretty close to flush with the top of the crankcase and it looks fairly square with the case, I would guess it is just the seal binding some and will relax with some run time.
OP, can you post a pic of the seals installed?
I do have some concern that he may have some shrapnel floating around in the bearings, though they usually just make the crank stop as opposed to making it difficult to spin.
While it is possible to seat the seals so deeply that they bind the crank, it is nearly impossible to seat them that deeply and not have them pop into the crankcase. If the seal lip is pretty close to flush with the top of the crankcase and it looks fairly square with the case, I would guess it is just the seal binding some and will relax with some run time.
OP, can you post a pic of the seals installed?
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
I am pretty sure it is not debris in the bearings. I flushed the bearings out several times and used a magnet prior to installing the new seal. The crankshaft was turning fairly easy until I added the new clutch side seal, and after installing I noticed increased resistance. The bearings were not replaced. The seal is definitely sitting lower that the crankcase, if I had to estimate I would say between 1/16" and 1/8". I am concerned I seated the seal just a tad too deep and thats why I have resistance when I turn.
Here are several pictures, but hard to get one that shows what youre looking for.
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Here are several pictures, but hard to get one that shows what youre looking for.
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Dan Forsh
Addicted to ArboristSite
Seeing your photos reminded me that the seal on that side is slightly different to the usual, or at least what I'm used to seeing. The oil seal fits inside the outer race of the bearing rather than into the crankcase.
Comparing yours to mine, it does look like you've driven it in a bit deeper. It also makes me think that because of the way that seal fits into the bearing race, you may also be side loading the bearing with the outer rim of the seal making contact with the balls.
Might be worth the suggested love taps on the opposite side of the crank to send the seal back out a bit, then a couple taps back just to re-centre the crank shaft?
Dan
Comparing yours to mine, it does look like you've driven it in a bit deeper. It also makes me think that because of the way that seal fits into the bearing race, you may also be side loading the bearing with the outer rim of the seal making contact with the balls.
Might be worth the suggested love taps on the opposite side of the crank to send the seal back out a bit, then a couple taps back just to re-centre the crank shaft?
Dan
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
That is a very real possibility. I am going to try an tap the opposite side as you suggested. I had someone look at it and they felt it was possibly seated a bit too deep, but that the turning of the crank should seat it properly. Granted, that is not a Stihl mechanic, but a very handy older gentelman who has helped me out of a few pickles. Fingers crossed, gonna go try and tap on the crank
I've just noticed this too. Look at the shoulder on the crank on mine just above the seal lip, you can't see this shoulder on yours, so maybe your crankshaft it already off centre?
little possum
Crash and Burn
Was the resistance felt before or after the piston/cylinder was put back on?
Adirondackstihl
Flyz, Fuel & Fotos
I've just noticed this too. Look at the shoulder on the crank on mine just above the seal lip, you can't see this shoulder on yours, so maybe your crankshaft it already off centre?
I went through a similar scenario when I put new bearings and seals in my 044. The seal does not seal against the shoulder on the crank. It seals against the oiler bushing, It doesn't look right...I know, but its the way it is.
I had to make a phonecall to Tennessee to figure that out.......where's Randy when you need him
.
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
the cylinder and piston had NOT been installed yet. I installed that after the seals. I noticed the resistance immediately after installing the clutch side oil seal. My boss' dad seems very confident that the seal is in level and the compression will align/slightly push the seal out.
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
to reiterate what I told possum, my boss' dad seems very confident that the seal is in level and the compression will align/slightly push the seal out. He says the oil pump will provide resistance on the other side. To be clear, you think the seal is installed too deep and needs to be reinstalled? Thanks for jumping in!
I went through a similar scenario when I put new bearings and seals in my 044. The seal does not seal against the shoulder on the crank. It seals against the oiler bushing, It doesn't look right...I know, but its the way it is.
I had to make a phonecall to Tennessee to figure that out.......where's Randy when you need him
Dan Forsh
Addicted to ArboristSite
I went through a similar scenario when I put new bearings and seals in my 044. The seal does not seal against the shoulder on the crank. It seals against the oiler bushing, It doesn't look right...I know, but its the way it is.
I had to make a phonecall to Tennessee to figure that out.......where's Randy when you need him
Yep, absolutely right! I'm a numbnut :redface: I took the photo of mine with the oiler bushing in place, hence the shoulder not seen on yours.
This is it with the bushing removed.
Sorry about the redherring,
Adirondackstihl
Flyz, Fuel & Fotos
IMO, the seal should be flush with the bearing race. A little deeper wont hurt as long as its not interfering with the cage.
In your case, you noticed resistance after installing the seal.....correct?
Knowing that the seal is seated farther than need be and it is creating possible interference with the bearing, (If it were me) I would pull the seal and install a new one.
Just for farts and wiggles have you tried tapping the FW side of the crank lightly? I assume you used the socket and hammer method to install the seals? There may be a slight chance you made contact with the outer race, causing some sort of misalignment. All I'm thinking is that an opposite and equal reaction may correct the issue without having to pull the seal.
