treeman82
Addicted to ArboristSite
On another note, are you looking to be employed longterm on a golf course, or would you prefer to open a tree company down the road?
Need Help justifying an ethical dilemma
- Thread starter chad556
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I think the ethical question of whether to top is unimportant here. What really becomes important is whether you are being asked to do something illegal, like trespass or vandalize someone else's property. Insist on speaking to the property owner or getting a signed release from that owner. Anything less than that could get you arrested; certainly sued. Stand firm on this issue, and you will probably not be confronted with whether to "top or not"
If it was a just a case of getting paid by your employer; make sure that you are on the clock using company equipment (liability issues covered, workers comp, too), do what the boss tells you, and you are good to go. Topping isn't the end of the world, particularly when the property owner approves.
No way, otherwise.
If it was a just a case of getting paid by your employer; make sure that you are on the clock using company equipment (liability issues covered, workers comp, too), do what the boss tells you, and you are good to go. Topping isn't the end of the world, particularly when the property owner approves.
No way, otherwise.
prentice110
SpongeBob Fap Pants
RUN!!!! dont walk. Guys a rich ass hole whos used to having his way cuz of his $. This will bite you in the ass so hard you'll cry to momma. Best bet is, tell him a famly member died, and give it to the first hack you see in a pickup. You cant teach the rich, they have $, so you know nothing, remember that. Im assuming a few here know what I mean by that. Back in 07, did a job in Lake Bluff, Lake Michigan north shore, you can see downtown Chi-town from this guys lake front property. Rich @hole waited till his neighbor was on Vaca to clear his(nighbors) backyard so he could see the Sears tower from his kitchen table. I was working with a real trashbag at the time. He did the job. I would never, and if I was broke and on crack, I would at least take the sign off the truck.
chad556
ArboristSite Operative
Haha, thanks for the advice guys. I am leaning toward the fact that topping isnt really the issue thats bothering me most here though it still bothers me because I want to do things right.
The thing is the trees that I think he wants done are all on his property and it is a rough overgrown area on a hillside that he owns just so no one else can build there and block his view of the Lower New York Bay. He and maybe the neighbors could see it from the upper storeys of their mansions. No one else would see them and to be honest the whole area is an overgrown eyesore it would be like topping trees in the middle of the woods really.
If I talk to the neighbors or at least get him to talk to the neighbors before I go in I would feel a lot better. I will also see if I can punch up a quick and dirty contract. The guy is a very successful real estate guy so scaring him with mumbo jumbo isnt likely I think. More likely he will eat me alive if I try it.
Im not sure if I will stick it out in the golf industry or try to give it a go doing tree work. There are aspects I love about both industries. Time will tell I guess this will be my second real side job excluding the ones I have done for friends and family.
I will keep you posted on what developes. I will have my excuses ready, try to talk him into removals instead of topping, cross my fingers and just hope to get out of there with both the guy and his neighbors happy and maybe have him flip me a couple hundred or so. Truth is I would do it for free just to get some more time in my saddle and with my saws. I really love working with trees, just not quite in the way this guy thinks :msp_unsure:
The thing is the trees that I think he wants done are all on his property and it is a rough overgrown area on a hillside that he owns just so no one else can build there and block his view of the Lower New York Bay. He and maybe the neighbors could see it from the upper storeys of their mansions. No one else would see them and to be honest the whole area is an overgrown eyesore it would be like topping trees in the middle of the woods really.
If I talk to the neighbors or at least get him to talk to the neighbors before I go in I would feel a lot better. I will also see if I can punch up a quick and dirty contract. The guy is a very successful real estate guy so scaring him with mumbo jumbo isnt likely I think. More likely he will eat me alive if I try it.
Im not sure if I will stick it out in the golf industry or try to give it a go doing tree work. There are aspects I love about both industries. Time will tell I guess this will be my second real side job excluding the ones I have done for friends and family.
I will keep you posted on what developes. I will have my excuses ready, try to talk him into removals instead of topping, cross my fingers and just hope to get out of there with both the guy and his neighbors happy and maybe have him flip me a couple hundred or so. Truth is I would do it for free just to get some more time in my saddle and with my saws. I really love working with trees, just not quite in the way this guy thinks :msp_unsure:
Golf course superintendents get paid better than most tree service owners, and the life expectancy is MUCH better.
spidermonkey17
ArboristSite Operative
sure they do if you can find a job/keep the job or the golf course stays open or are willing to keep the hours and all the BS that comes along with it plus a little extra then sure the money is worth it. I would rather make a less and have my free time and not deal with all the BS, a little does not bother me, but not what comes with that territory.
I thought this whole thread was somewhat related to the BS level. Almost always lots of that around where rich folks hang out to impress each other.
Cutler tree
ArboristSite Member
Get the neighbors permission and a contract and go do it. Tell the guy that you don't top trees and you're only gonna do it because you like him(try one more time to give other options) so while I want referals don't tell the people I did this for you. It'll stroke his ego, you'll make some cash, won't hurt your reputation, he will probably refer you
sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
Many good responses. Been in this boat a few times. I let then know about the code of ethics, even carry a little bit of info that I give them that has the reasons why topping is bad and how it can affect my certification. He is wealthy, so he should have some type of education, unless he is related to Oprah. He should see the dilemma, and explain it to him, why you cant top the trees. Then, if he still wants it done, have a hacker in your pocket to give him and let them figure it out. If he has any type of professionalism in him, he will read between the lines and get were you are coming from. He is one person, dont ruin your rep for him.
chad556
ArboristSite Operative
Well I just spoke with the HO on the phone today. Fortunately, he thinks that it would also be a good idea if he is there when I come and do the work and also he said he would accompany me when I was getting set up and talk to the neighbors. Could be good because maybe I could pick up another job and more $$$. I will also be able to try to sell him one more time on the removals instead of topping. Really the only thing this guy cares about is his view, he wants to look out over a low sea of green leaves onto a blue ocean and blue sky, understandable.
The trees have been topped by local hacks presumably every few years (still growing vigorously but very poor structurally) so taking them out would be ideal allowing new growth to fill in the areas where they once stood. If he really wants the tops to come out then I like the idea of asking him keep it discrete. It sounds horribly unethical and still makes me feel wrong but they are just a couple of mangled norway maples and a weedy black cherry not even visible to the public in any way (except maybe off on the bay with a telescope:tongue2
. I mean come on people its not like i'm causing any harm to anyone or causing any monetary damage (trust me the view is worth way more than the trees from a real estate standpoint). The only other alternative is removal, at least if they are topped they will still be around for a little longer to clean a little more air for us to breath. Terrible justification, I know but its all ive got. I really wish I could pass this job off but the reality of it was I was committed without knowing it yet when I first told my boss I would be interested in doing trees for the guy on the side.
very true, lol. It is a big negative. Ideally, I would like to be able to do both golf and trees as a golf course arborist. Sadly those positions are few and far between. But hey, I am highly qualified if one opens up. :msp_smile:
The trees have been topped by local hacks presumably every few years (still growing vigorously but very poor structurally) so taking them out would be ideal allowing new growth to fill in the areas where they once stood. If he really wants the tops to come out then I like the idea of asking him keep it discrete. It sounds horribly unethical and still makes me feel wrong but they are just a couple of mangled norway maples and a weedy black cherry not even visible to the public in any way (except maybe off on the bay with a telescope:tongue2
. I mean come on people its not like i'm causing any harm to anyone or causing any monetary damage (trust me the view is worth way more than the trees from a real estate standpoint). The only other alternative is removal, at least if they are topped they will still be around for a little longer to clean a little more air for us to breath. Terrible justification, I know but its all ive got. I really wish I could pass this job off but the reality of it was I was committed without knowing it yet when I first told my boss I would be interested in doing trees for the guy on the side. very true, lol. It is a big negative. Ideally, I would like to be able to do both golf and trees as a golf course arborist. Sadly those positions are few and far between. But hey, I am highly qualified if one opens up. :msp_smile:
Cut back to laterals, keep the health of the tree in mind, and it is reduction, not topping. I mean, come on, person!
umpkin2:"I've seen the time walking away would have solved everything."
We all have--that's known as hindight. I was talking present tense. sounds like chad is carefully walking toward the right solution on this one.
Rftreeman
Addicted to ArboristSite
just top the damn things already, I mean crown reduction them so you can join us other "hacks" in celebration.....
and remember, once a hack always a hack..........I know from experience............lol....
and remember, once a hack always a hack..........I know from experience............lol....
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If the trees were topped in the past, then your ethical dilemma is solved. It's now a retop which is OK. Even if they haven't been topped, I would try and convince him that you should do it as a tree reduction using drop crotch pruning and should be done over a 3 year period.
As far as the neighbour, I would insist on written approval before you go on their property. If anything goes wrong, lawyers will be making vacation plans on your dime.
chad556
ArboristSite Operative
Yeah that is an option, I really didn't get a close up look at the exact tree structure, but it looks like it has been topped before. I doubt the guy will want to do the three year crown reduction though that is the only responsible way I would ever advocate turning a 35' tree into a 20' one. I will be as conscientious as I can about tree health when I make my cuts. Hopefully the trees structure will be helpful to me as well though I doubt it, norway maples are not the nicest trees to begin with. If it really has been topped already then I guess all I can do is cut off the suckers that emerged, in which case I wouldn't be topping, I would be pollarding right?:hmm3grin2orange:
And yeah I am not setting foot on the neighbors property unless this guy is with me and there is no way I will cut anything there unless they ask and direct me to do it personally. I do have a very poorly done rough draft of a contract thats a lot better than nothing that I will bring along to sign just in case I feel the need to bring it out. Other than that I think I am covered sufficiently, thanks for all the advice everyone. One more day to finish up the workweek and then on the the side job
And yeah I am not setting foot on the neighbors property unless this guy is with me and there is no way I will cut anything there unless they ask and direct me to do it personally. I do have a very poorly done rough draft of a contract thats a lot better than nothing that I will bring along to sign just in case I feel the need to bring it out. Other than that I think I am covered sufficiently, thanks for all the advice everyone. One more day to finish up the workweek and then on the the side job
treesandsurf
ArboristSite Operative
Yeah that is an option, I really didn't get a close up look at the exact tree structure, but it looks like it has been topped before. I doubt the guy will want to do the three year crown reduction though that is the only responsible way I would ever advocate turning a 35' tree into a 20' one. I will be as conscientious as I can about tree health when I make my cuts. Hopefully the trees structure will be helpful to me as well though I doubt it, norway maples are not the nicest trees to begin with. If it really has been topped already then I guess all I can do is cut off the suckers that emerged, in which case I wouldn't be topping, I would be pollarding right?:hmm3grin2orange:
And yeah I am not setting foot on the neighbors property unless this guy is with me and there is no way I will cut anything there unless they ask and direct me to do it personally. I do have a very poorly done rough draft of a contract thats a lot better than nothing that I will bring along to sign just in case I feel the need to bring it out. Other than that I think I am covered sufficiently, thanks for all the advice everyone. One more day to finish up the workweek and then on the the side job
If you're going to do work in the residential/private scene you'd better get used to this situation. At least once a week I get asked to top a tree. I tell them I don't top trees, but I know a bunch of guys that would do it for them.
Most of the time they want to hear what I recommend and I end up getting the job anyway. We've done some really cool crown restorations on mangled trees that had been hacked in the past.
Funny thing is the height issue is MORE of a problem with re-growth from topped trees here in the tropics than if they would have left the trees alone in the first place :hmm3grin2orange:
jp
chad556
ArboristSite Operative
Well I did the job yesterday and let me say what a mess! He was there calling the shots the whole time. There was little left to do other than chop off the suckers that grew where the maple trees was previously topped. The worst part was there was some kind of vine twisted and wrapped all around the upper branches so the whole thing was cut, wrestle with it and repeat. The cherry tree was bigger than I thought but it went ok. Took forever to get my line up in the tree because it was such rough terrain and i ended up getting a lower limb and alternating my lanyards to get up. Kept cutting back to laterals until he said it looked good, I estimated i took out about 30-40% of the canopy and aside from one terrible tear in the bark all the cuts were clean. I got to try out my new silky zubat, nice saw, In the vine covered maples i was swinging it around like a machete to get those branches free.
The neighbors were nice and understanding which was a relief. The trees look like crap now but they are in the middle of the woods on a sidehill and no one can see them anymore. He even had me try to drop a black locust which got hung up on another tree. I really thought it would knock the other tree down but it didnt but he said not to worry about it because it was out of the way well enough. It was a learning experience. He had me name my price at the end of the day, i was still up in one of the maples finishing up and glad to be almost done so a just blurted out a buck fifty. Not bad for 2 hours worth of work. Well thats my story, he said he would call me back so we will see how that goes, now im off to atlantic city for the day to see if I can maybe double my $150:hmm3grin2orange:
The neighbors were nice and understanding which was a relief. The trees look like crap now but they are in the middle of the woods on a sidehill and no one can see them anymore. He even had me try to drop a black locust which got hung up on another tree. I really thought it would knock the other tree down but it didnt but he said not to worry about it because it was out of the way well enough. It was a learning experience. He had me name my price at the end of the day, i was still up in one of the maples finishing up and glad to be almost done so a just blurted out a buck fifty. Not bad for 2 hours worth of work. Well thats my story, he said he would call me back so we will see how that goes, now im off to atlantic city for the day to see if I can maybe double my $150:hmm3grin2orange:
Glad you got it sorted..I hate doing evil crap to trees...had a very nice lady who wanted me to top out some big gorgeous crepe myrtle the other day...talked her out of it pretty quick along with a sweet little upsell, which I mentally over bid and then made sure she heard that part then backed up and gave her a discount...been trying to get into this particular neighborhood for awhile...and this lady likes to talk...will keep her happy...
Treepedo
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
Norway maples in a wooded lot.
Considered an invasive species here.
I would feel good about it you did good service to the environment.
Considered an invasive species here.
I would feel good about it you did good service to the environment.
freeweight
ArboristSite Operative
if u could use the money doit!
so many of you "turn down jobs" cuz you think it aint right ,just think of how many things u do during the day that some people may think ISNT RIGHT
they are his trees let him decide what he wants,u tried talking to him and he isnt for it ,so do the dam job and get it out of the way
you guys who are turning down jobs i thank u ,cause it puts food on the plate for the guys that have children to feed,when they get the job
so many babys here,bet u had sex,before marriage thousands of peopl;e look down on u for that ,but i bet ud do it again,if you think it wont KILL the tree do it and feed yourself/family but get permission from next door
so many of you "turn down jobs" cuz you think it aint right ,just think of how many things u do during the day that some people may think ISNT RIGHT
they are his trees let him decide what he wants,u tried talking to him and he isnt for it ,so do the dam job and get it out of the way
you guys who are turning down jobs i thank u ,cause it puts food on the plate for the guys that have children to feed,when they get the job
so many babys here,bet u had sex,before marriage thousands of peopl;e look down on u for that ,but i bet ud do it again,if you think it wont KILL the tree do it and feed yourself/family but get permission from next door
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