Need Ideas

[USMC615]

worked for a place that had this idea..."we can mow our own lawn cheaper than paying the landscapers"...so they bought a 54" scag zero turn rider, and a 21" push mower...for near 30 acre of lawn between two buildings, took me and the other "maintenance" guy which is an electrician 2 1/2 days to do it...which is the same as paying 1 person full time to mow the lawn+ equipment and fuel costs... it cost them more than triple what the landscapers charged, and none of the work for our "real" job was getting done...yeah that was a GREAT idea...only lasted 1 season until they figured out they ****ed up!

I agree with ya there...sometimes ya just wanna say 'Hello...anybody in there?' Just foolish.

It's not that we don't want to spend the money, we just want to do it right this time. We started out small, more for fun and something to do. The equipment we bought at the time was more than adequate to do the job back then. When you say don't want to spend the money it made me LOL a little. Very short list of the bigger things we have and they were well over $250k. Here is just a couple pieces we have already.

Multitek 2040.
2014 Chevy 2500hd duramax
Kubota l4740 full cab.
Wacker Neuson WL37 with highflo
2-corn pro trailers
20' elevator for the processor
Supper Split HD
Bundle wood wrapper



The Silverado is forsale now along with the Wacker. If we are going to grow, they are not going to fit the new plans, and would free up some cash.

I would suggest give the specs on the 3/4 ton 2014 Chevy for sale...model, mileage, oil change intervals documented (most folks nowadays keep those for sell purposes), 2x4?, 4x4? I wish you guys the best of luck in your future endeavors and I hope you sell 800-1000 cord a yr and then some...my theory still stands...build a pole barn the size of a football field...sounds like ya might need the space...you can drop electrical throughout it with romex, energize fans to draft air to dry the wood in the center area. Sounds to me like money is not that big of an object here. I'd like to hear Nathon918's comments here and would certainly suggest that. I think his comments earlier were spot on. I know there's more than one way to skin a cat...Just my thoughts guys.

 

[nathon918]

It's not that we don't want to spend the money, we just want to do it right this time. We started out small, more for fun and something to do. The equipment we bought at the time was more than adequate to do the job back then. When you say don't want to spend the money it made me LOL a little. Very short list of the bigger things we have and they were well over $250k. Here is just a couple pieces we have already.

Multitek 2040.
2014 Chevy 2500hd duramax
Kubota l4740 full cab.
Wacker Neuson WL37 with highflo
2-corn pro trailers
20' elevator for the processor
Supper Split HD
Bundle wood wrapper



The Silverado is forsale now along with the Wacker. If we are going to grow, they are not going to fit the new plans, and would free up some cash.

ok you spent money...but not on equipment you could grow much with
out of that list id want to get rid of everything except the processor...everything else is for "small" scale. for the price of that duramax you could have bought 2 trucks actually suited for deliveries...
30' minimum conveyor (cant make much of a pile, or load a very big truck with a 20 footer), loader equivalent to a JD544 or bigger, 1 ton dump for up to 2 cord deliveries, and bigger 6 or 10 wheel dump for bigger deliveries...
you wanted ideas, but you don't seem to get that your limitation is actually your entire operation...there's a BIG difference between 200 and 800-1000 cord, and you simply don't have the equipment to handle that much production at an anywhere near efficient rate...if you wanted to just sell green then your set, but all the extra handling for dry wood eats a lot of time and money...

I grew up logging, and my family runs a logging/ land clearing company, and they sell around 400 cord/yr, they only do firewood when they are between jobs, or nights and weekends...its all green, right out of the processor into the truck and delivered, the extra money they would get selling dry wood isn't worth the extra time and money spent dealing with drying it...they had tried it though, they paved a big section of the mill yard, put 4 x 4 x 4 concrete blocks around 3 sides so they had something to hold the wood while turning the piles/loading trucks...only did it for a year, now they just use the area to park the log trucks and chip trailers in...

 

[USMC615]

ok you spent money...but not on equipment you could grow much with
out of that list id want to get rid of everything except the processor...everything else is for "small" scale. for the price of that duramax you could have bought 2 trucks actually suited for deliveries...
30' minimum conveyor (cant make much of a pile, or load a very big truck with a 20 footer), loader equivalent to a JD544 or bigger, 1 ton dump for up to 2 cord deliveries, and bigger 6 or 10 wheel dump for bigger deliveries...
you wanted ideas, but you don't seem to get that your limitation is actually your entire operation...there's a BIG difference between 200 and 800-1000 cord, and you simply don't have the equipment to handle that much production at an anywhere near efficient rate...if you wanted to just sell green then your set, but all the extra handling for dry wood eats a lot of time and money...

I grew up logging, and my family runs a logging/ land clearing company, and they sell around 400 cord/yr, they only do firewood when they are between jobs, or nights and weekends...its all green, right out of the processor into the truck and delivered, the extra money they would get selling dry wood isn't worth the extra time and money spent dealing with drying it...they had tried it though, they paved a big section of the mill yard, put 4 x 4 x 4 concrete blocks around 3 sides so they had something to hold the wood while turning the piles/loading trucks...only did it for a year, now they just use the area to park the log trucks and chip trailers in...

Spot on!! And I'm not in the logging business nor a woodsman by trade, sell a handful of cords a yr, split mostly for myself and family. My job is 180 degs from your business. Common sense..., Nathon918 is dead nuts on this one...I believe you can 'bet the farm' on this mans input. There's not a soul here who wants to see you guys do nothing other than work like hell at your business, prosper, make a damn good living. Working smart and working hard are two different animals. Get the right equipment and setup, you'll see the bounty a heap sooner.

 

[KiwiBro]

 

[maine]

View attachment 409731

what is the capacity of those?
they look pretty small but it may just be the lack of reference.

 

[KiwiBro]

what is the capacity of those?
they look pretty small but it may just be the lack of reference.

Dunno. Just a 'starter for ten points'. Could have them made bigger, collapsible, plastic, steel, etc. Not saying it would be cheap, but it's an idea.

 

[maine]

Dunno. Just a 'starter for ten points'. Could have them made bigger, collapsible, plastic, steel, etc. Not saying it would be cheap, but it's an idea.

i wonder if building boxes/crates out of chain link fencing would be worth it....

 

[mijdirtyjeep]

Thanks you for your ideas/advice Nathon. They are spot on for what is needed for 1000/cords a year.

I guess at this point we are most likely going to try and only up our production to 4-500-cords. All the equipment so far has been bought with cash "Dave Ramsey type guys here", and neither of us is going to spend $90k on a used tractor that size. That is not saying down the road it won't happen, just not right now.

There is no market for green wood here, we tried that and did not sell very much. Around here, they do not seem to think ahead and wait for the first snow to fly before ordering wood. I have a CDL class A license and did look into a large dump truck "actually had one back at the beginning". It held 4cords, and never got used, as almost all our orders are for 1-2cords at a time. It required tons of upkeep and keeping them DOT inspections up on it was a pain "our Motor Carriers love to pick on these trucks". I am actually on a first name basis with the main Motor Carrier. I work with him at my main job, and get pulled over by him on the firewood job! He even admitted that he would not even hesitate to pull his mom over, very dedicated to his profession.

So coming out of all this advise so far, it is between baskets that are filled directly off the conveyor the stacked in the yard or we are going to build a covered area to just dump the wood in. I myself like the covered roof, first in , first out approach.

That would give us a nice area to get out of the weather to bundle the wood that goes to the campgrounds. While that is not a very big part of our operation now "just 2-campgrounds and a couple gas stations" we do go though around 2000-2500bundles a year". We are in the process of bidding on a couple more "very large" state park campgrounds.

Again, I want to thank you guys for taking time to post your ideas. All have been looked over and we appreciate them immensely!

 

[cantoo]

Very few guys around here store wood under a roof to season. Most convey or dump it into windrows and let sun and wind do the job. If they do stack any then it goes under a roof but customers pay for that. Bundled wood goes under rooves. Coverall ( gone now), Brite span and Colhoun are all built close to me. I have some steel beams getting cut up at Brite Span this week. Some places are just a mud hole from one end to the other, usually these are the guys trying to get bigger. Buildings can be as long as you want and have multiple openings along them.
http://www.britespanbuildings.com/

 

[shamusturbo]

Jim,

I run a very similar operation to yours in Western PA. We have 80 some 225 gal chemical containers that have the top cut off, the bladder cut out, and one of the long sides cut off to stack two rows of 4'x4' making them facecord baskets stacked. I will dig up a picture for reference. I bought the first 23 from a similar business that was going out of business and got the remaining ones from a chemical company I worked for as a contractor in high school. I just filled the last of them this weekend for late summer/next winter sales. Yes it makes premium wood but most customers don't know the difference....

We were doing 120-140 cords a year with splitters and just jumped to a full size processor. Quality has definitely gone down and waste has gone up but the time saved is worth the hassle on the back end instead of the splitting time required. Now, I am "biting the bullet" to get 300-350 cords split and ready for the upcoming winter. I pay suppliers/loggers/land clearers to bring the wood to me. I too am limited in many facets because I started with an ax 10 years ago, literally. I am now looking for CDL trucks and have had enough experience with the DOT to puke. However, 1-ton dumps and dump inserts & trailers have made the process much easier than hand unloading from a 1/2 ton.

We are at the same point as well with trying to keep it clean/off the ground while letting it be able to get dry with enough wind getting to everything we would like to sell. Also, as a quick side note, I can 100% back you up that most people wait until its below freezing or under 2' of snow to make a 911-like call for wood and then want it dumped or stacked in there back yard, up a slope, around playset, and through a marsh.

Apply the most basic numbers to simply delivering 800-1000 cords each year. During the peak season (Sept/Oct & Feb/March) (Oh I split zero or I didn't split nearly enough, respectively) you are looking at delivering 30-40 cords a week!! Physically, especially with the equipment you have now, it cannot be done. I assume you dance a delicate line with "employment" and hiring enough help to move that kind of wood is outrageous. You would seriously be better hiring a lawyer to help you get/keep legal mexicans or central american immigrants. I am not kidding. I know of a handful of farms and concrete companies that do this locally.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic. I truly understand how passionate you are about what you do! I'm just trying to reinforce gently that there is no miracle cure. It's all work. For us, we are leaning towards a pole building as well. They keep the wood clean and usually spare enough room to keep equipment dry and the processor operator out of the weather. Plus, if you ever move on, the building can be re-purposed and it adds value to the real estate you have as well.

 

[shamusturbo]

Here are the crates. Deceptively heavy. That's roughly equal to 2 & 2/3 of a cord. I would guess the wood alone weighed 9-10k.

I will have to get some better pictures of the baskets, but you get the idea. They are useless when the wood is thrown in, IMO. Also, with one side cut out, you can chain them to the forks of the skidloader and dump them into trucks or at least get them awfully close before loading by hand.

 

[1 stihl nut]

I think it is wise to not make the volume jump you were originally planning. One always makes some "mistakes" when growing and learning. They are much more digestible when done in moderate amounts.

If you had a perfect model to copy, and had the cash to invest at that level, that would be one thing, but you don't , so it's more of a risk.

And growing the necessary labor supply for that size operation is a challenge in itself.

I would be interested to hear more about your process and flow, size of current labor force, etc.

 

[shamusturbo]

Not to go on and on but I wanted to hit a couple other points.

• For us, a skidsteer is the best all-around piece of equipment. I sometimes regret buying a 11k# machine but when you need the power/lift/pull, it's there! And yes used big equipment is cheap but, smaller/"newer technology" equipment is much faster and that's the name of the game.
• Which brings me to my next point that KiwiBro brought up: it will always break when you least expect it at the most inopportune time. The radiator on the same skidsteer started leaking hydraulic fluid last week and I had a "for hire" job planned for the weekend. Radiator shop: 5 days and $400......
• CDL trucks don't always fit where you need them. I live relatively rural but my customers are probably 50/50. I struggle sometimes with a 1-ton dump or even a 1/2 ton pick up. They are not a cure-all by any means and as you already pointed out, quite a headache on occasion.
• As for the kiln: why pay for the equipment and more importantly, the energy it takes to dry the wood when nature does it for free. The hardest part is getting ahead is getting complacent when you feel you are ahead. But to contradict my energy point, fans -especially in a pole building- would do a world of good.
• Lastly, buying everything with cash. I am in the same boat and it sucks! We started selling wood as a means to go to college so I can say that firewood has taught me better. I earned an MBA, after all....In the past 5 years I have done everything I could have possibly done to build my credit. We aren't going to become millionaires overnight by splitting 3500 cords a year. We are making a living and we have fun/travel with whats left over. Building a relationship with the bank has probably been one of the most frustrating and challenging things I have ever done. You have to physically and mentally slow down and understand what they want from you in return for increased credit. It sucks, I know. But if you want to get the equipment and insurances and cover expenses when you are out of season, you need credit.

Rant over. Just my take. It may mean nothing but I hope I have helped more than hindered/frustrated everyone......

 

[mijdirtyjeep]

Yeah, I am thinking that 1000-cords right now is just a silly idea. We are almost exactly like Shamusturbo's operation in all aspects except my baskets for storing are wood.

The processor can easily in a day cut and split up 25/cords. Normally I will stack the wood till noon "before the heat of the day sets in", then go sit in the processor for the rest of the day. The next day I do the same. With only doing it right now"since I still have a full time job" on the weekends and then after work for just a couple hours we doing decent. I actually enjoy the stacking, I know down the road my body is going to hate me.

We are not able to run right now with the Frost laws being enforced, trucks can not deliver for a couple more weeks. That gives us time to brainstorm and get the yard all cleaned up and ready to go full tilt through the summer!

 

[vt625]

The bags are interesting but degrade in the sun. If you have the pole building they could work well. I bought some Dino bags for about $10 ea. less with big orders. They hold a half cord. There are also bags that have dump bottoms which might be nice. Then you can dump into the trailer when time to deliver. Keeps the bags in your possession. Requires a pretty high lift with forks. Skid steer would be nice.

 

[KiwiBro]

The bags are interesting but degrade in the sun. If you have the pole building they could work well. I bought some Dino bags for about $10 ea. less with big orders. They hold a half cord. There are also bags that have dump bottoms which might be nice. Then you can dump into the trailer when time to deliver. Keeps the bags in your possession. Requires a pretty high lift with forks. Skid steer would be nice.

Do you have any links or images of the dump bags please? I've cut the bottoms out of FIBC's and cinched them with a quick-release knot to trigger the dumping, and have a few ideas how to get these commercially made in some volume, but no point re-inventing the wheel.

Thanks.

 

[vt625]

I don't have links but search for bottom discharge fibc bags. Dino bags have mesh vents which I think is harder to find in other style bags.

 

[KiwiBro]

Yeah, I am thinking that 1000-cords right now is just a silly idea. We are almost exactly like Shamusturbo's operation in all aspects except my baskets for storing are wood.

The processor can easily in a day cut and split up 25/cords. Normally I will stack the wood till noon "before the heat of the day sets in", then go sit in the processor for the rest of the day. The next day I do the same. With only doing it right now"since I still have a full time job" on the weekends and then after work for just a couple hours we doing decent. I actually enjoy the stacking, I know down the road my body is going to hate me.

We are not able to run right now with the Frost laws being enforced, trucks can not deliver for a couple more weeks. That gives us time to brainstorm and get the yard all cleaned up and ready to go full tilt through the summer!

So, allowing for some days off (we are not machines), and knowing what we do about your operation, sounds like about 500-600 cords would be a sweet spot for you guys, allowing time to focus purely on deliveries and customer service during peak season.

That sound about right to you guys? To everyone else reading this?

 

[KiwiBro]

I don't have links but search for bottom discharge fibc bags. Dino bags have mesh vents which I think is harder to find in other style bags.

Thank you.


Not quite what I had in mind but close.

 

[mijdirtyjeep]

So, allowing for some days off (we are not machines), and knowing what we do about your operation, sounds like about 500-600 cords would be a sweet spot for you guys, allowing time to focus purely on deliveries and customer service during peak season.

That sound about right to you guys? To everyone else reading this?

That's definitely sounding like a more achievable goal , than 1000 cords. We are going to try to hit that number, and see where we go from there!