Need neighbor/tree help. Please!

[Adkpk]

X2

And I would like to add, you guys are covering the bases very well. Keep up the good work. Nothing is going to keep that tree up if it blows down from a strong wind or gets struck by lighting because it has become the tallest tree in the area. This is just a fast of life. But as you all seem to agree is, to asses, Elizamoms question is impossible unless you were to step foot in the yard. This is a good thread for us onlookers. Sorry for your predicament Eliz.

 

[Old Monkey]

That tree would not worry me in the slightest if I lived there. I agree with much of the advice here, get someone else to look at it, reduce the leaning spar, cable it if advised and enjoy having a nice shade tree.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The weight of the branch will not make the tree fall in the direction of the house. Naturally leaning trees, like this one, are statistically no more likely to fail than straight trees.
The lower branch could actually save your house. If you think about the dynamics of a falling tree, the lower branch will hit the ground before the top hits your house. This will slow the fall and possibly tip the entire falling tree to the side. This is all under the assumption the tree could fall, which isn't going to happen anytime soon.
Before I undergo remediation work on a tree, I need to have an actual problem to remedy. What problem did the arborist suggest needed remedying? The lean? The tree is too big? Is there a structural issue? Fruiting bodies of an aggressive root rot fungi? Heaving of the soil at the base? Tree decline? A hollow spot found while thumping with a mallet? What?

Can you measure how many feet it is from the tree base, to the side wall of your house?

 

[Ekka]

Eric, why is risk mitigation 100% the trunk owner's duty? I think sharing is more fair. After all it was planted by a squirrel.

Regardless of who planted it she is the owner of it. She didn't remove it, prune it etc.

You may have bought a 2nd hand house, not built it but you are responsible for it. If it is dangerous and in a state of disrepair then you have to make it good or an authority will condemn it.

Private nuisance laws run down this course and new laws being introduced in NSW places the onus straight onto the tree owner.... about time people took 100% responsibility for their vegetation. Buck passing can now stop.

 

[northernmover]

Throughout this thread there are good arguments from both sides. In actuality, there is no exact science to tree work. You can talk with 20 arborists and get 20 opinions, either way the guy who actually saw it can present the best one. Have another arborist come out and look at it, then sit down with the neighbor and come up with a plan that will make you both happy. If you hire any work done, make sure that they are insured. Good Luck!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Regardless of who planted it she is the owner of it. She didn't remove it, prune it etc.

You may have bought a 2nd hand house, not built it but you are responsible for it. If it is dangerous and in a state of disrepair then you have to make it good or an authority will condemn it.

Private nuisance laws run down this course and new laws being introduced in NSW places the onus straight onto the tree owner.... about time people took 100% responsibility for their vegetation. Buck passing can now stop.

I agree with what you are saying, but this tree is not a danger or in a state of disrepair. If it was, then yes, it should be removed at the owner's expense within a reasonable amount of time.
What we have is a tree that annoys the neighbor. In this case, the annoyance should be paid for by the one annoyed, only with permission, and done as not to cause extensive damage to the tree. There is also some precident for carefully cutting the tree back to the property line, again being careful not to damage the tree.
The suggestion to remove a large limb from a mature tree to try to correct a lean that has always existed, is bad advise. Especially in light of the fact that there are no major defects.

 

[moss]

Not to beat a dead horse but clearly an arborist on site can make the best recommendation.

Looking at the photos it's interesting to see the smaller oak in the next yard back leaning the other direction with the roots clearly heaving up. It's useful to consider which direction severe winds typically come from for the location. The small oak gives a possible hint. I also understand the winds can vary for a hurricane depending on how it comes in. The oak in question looks very solid, would require soaking rains for a couple of days and very unusual wind event to push over. The tree is shielded by the nearby oaks from wind coming upside of the lean. Even then it might only go part way over or just increase lean slightly. The codominant looks pretty good, ultimately a flawed joint but looks strong for what it is (arborist must assess). Horizontal limbs on white oak are amazingly strong unless they are in an advanced state of rot (arborist must assess). How many of you have hand-sawed through a bone dead white oak limb and thought afterwards "this wasn't going anywhere for a long time". The only thing more tenacious is a dead honey locust branch.

It appears that the lean results from the tree reaching for sun away from the oaks next to it. The overall orientation of the tree looks sound. As others have mentioned trees have lean more often than not, it's a natural state of affairs. There are many healthy trees with more lean that stay put for decades if not longer. In the photo that shows the ground around the tree there is no obvious sign of heaving on the upside of the lean. Obviously it has to be examined but it looks very good in the photo.

I'm an amateur tree analyst so this is a good opportunity for me to try and figure it out. Thanks for any feedback.
-moss

 

[beowulf343]

Remove the tree-worry eliminated.

 

[Ekka]

Mike, the old rule was that anything your side of the fence was your responsibility. But that is changing now.

The annoyance emanated from the trunk owners side and the trunk owner failed to contain the tree within their property boundary allowing it to trespass. Yes, that's a trespassing tree to which the annoyed did not agree to.

Again, why have trees with 60' dia canopies 5' away from a fence?

I believe the new laws are correct and the landowners have the right to enjoy their property the way they like and should not have to incur expenses to keep other peoples vegetation in check.

Even falling leaves here constitute a private nuisance.

I am discussing the rules more so than the individual tree. I mentioned earlier that a compromise needs to be reached as to what would be fair ground for both parties regarding the tree work (if any), however the cost should be 100% the trunk owners to pay.

Trees out live humans, trees generally out live the resided people, people move etc. Thought has to be placed into the fact that trees have multiple tenants in their lifetime ... not all will enjoy them.

 

[moss]

Again, why have trees with 60' dia canopies 5' away from a fence?

The majority of trees on private property in my area grow on boundary lines between houses and property. That's because people mow the lawn and rake leaves but don't pay attention to what's growing on the edge of fences and walls where accumulated leaves and neglect provide good germination and habitat for saplings, 20 years goes by and BAM! look out the window and there's a tree. If all the boundary trees were cut down there would be massive loss of trees in the city and suburbs. So there is a built-in conflict. Neighbors have territorial tension so trees provide the perfect opportunity to work it out. I've had three different owners in the house next door over six years. The first 2 were obsessed with the idea that their boundary trees were preventing their lawn from reaching it's full potential. The first nearly wrecked a couple of trees with over-pruning. Now one is loaded with epicormics and is in bad shape. A lot of free floating anxiety is worked out on trees unfortunately. In many cases the tree is only a perceived problem.
-moss

 

[Adkpk]

The majority of trees on private property in my area grow on boundary lines between houses and property. That's because people mow the lawn and rake leaves but don't pay attention to what's growing on the edge of fences and walls where accumulated leaves and neglect provide good germination and habitat for saplings, 20 years goes by and BAM! look out the window and there's a tree. If all the boundary trees were cut down there would be massive loss of trees in the city and suburbs. So there is a built-in conflict. Neighbors have territorial tension so trees provide the perfect opportunity to work it out. I've had three different owners in the house next door over six years. The first 2 were obsessed with the idea that their boundary trees were preventing their lawn from reaching it's full potential. The first nearly wrecked a couple of trees with over-pruning. Now one is loaded with epicormics and is in bad shape. A lot of free floating anxiety is worked out on trees unfortunately. In many cases the tree is only a perceived problem.
-moss

Yes, that is why town's should have an urban logger working on the town board to keep an eye on these trees and insure that the canopy stays healthy.

 

[ggttp]

I have seen this many times where i live. Just last year a perfectly healthy 80' pin oak located within 15' of the property line. The tree fell toward the neighbors yard and had to pay to clean up all of the tree except for the 15 feet of trunk that was left on the trunk owners property. When we talked to both insurance companies they told us that unless there is proof (prior to the incident) that the tree was dead or had any other major defect, and the trunk owner had certified written knowledge of the tree problem that trunk owner was not responsible.

I looked into it and found that a tree owner can not be forced to have there tree trimmed back off a neighbors lot. If the neighbor wants it trimmed back they must have it done and can only trim from property line up (unless tree owner approves trimming on there property)

A tree owner can only be held liable for the damage a tree causes if there is proof that there is a major problem ( dead, major split, etc.) Leaning is not a major defect. The tree owner can claim they did not know about the problem that is why a certified letter is needed to inform them.

If the neighbor pays half you should be happy. They don't have to pay a dime.

 

[johnha]

I am sorry, I was not trying to offend you, just trying to get to the arborist's opinion.

I concur with those on here who have deferred to his expertise. But from the amount of worry this seems to be causing you, I would get another arborist's opinion.

Remember, that tree has stood up to those winds for many many years.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mike...

Even falling leaves here constitute a private nuisance...

On a windy day a leaf might fall hundreds of yards, or more! Imagine a Pacific Northwest lumber company clear cutting the whole west coast based on that!

"Hey, I found a Sequoia giganteum needle in my Boston gutter. Clear cut the entire US!"

 

[treeseer]

Eric I waded through the whole Australian ordinance to find the extreme nonsense that you are quoting. Overhanging branches are not an act of war, and should not cause that kind of response. Good replies by others on that.

Mike I cannot see how you can sit at your desk in Wisconsin and proclaim this tree defect-free. I agree that overpruning would be very harmful. Elizasmom has the right to have it pruned in a proper way. 10-15% reduction, taking off horizontals and cutting back to good upright laterals, should lessen the risk to a tolerable level. IF the forks and the lean and the target are as they appear in the picture.

Those advocating that an RCA is most qualified to assess risk should look at the relative requirements for RCA vs. BCMA. Either or both or a CA with experience can give a qualified opinion. Hey I'm going to DC in March; pm me if you want it lightly pruned then.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

.

Mike I cannot see how you can sit at your desk in Wisconsin and proclaim this tree defect-free. I agree that overpruning would be very harmful. Elizasmom has the right to have it pruned in a proper way. 10-15% reduction, taking off horizontals and cutting back to good upright laterals, should lessen the risk to a tolerable level. IF the forks and the lean and the target are as they appear in the picture.

A normal, healthy, White Oak is perfectly safe to have in a yard near a home. The visiting arborist found no defect other than lean, which is not a defect at all.
Based on that, you, also not an on site arborist, are recommending a 15% reduction. A 15% reduction on a mature White Oak growing in residential conditions could very well be a death sentence for the tree.
Let me ask you this, would the cuts be made to reduce the height, the lean, or both?
In any event, you would only be increasing the risk by making cuts.
Of course, if all you have is a chainsaw, all you can do is cut.

 

[Ekka]

Overhanging branches are not an act of war, and should not cause that kind of response.

They are a tresspass, property owners are allowed to enjoy their property how they see fit without having neighbours thrust their "green" upon them.

If people want fence-line screening then plant appropriate species. If you are going to plant within 5' of the boundry look for columnar or fatigiate trees, also look for height caps so you dont end up the UK fiasco of having Hedge and Tree Anti Social Behaviour Act (http://www.netlawman.co.uk/info/hedges-trees-anti-social-behaviour-act-2003.php)

So, seems clear the world is changing Guy. The law is siding with the victims finally. Seems we are a little ahead with the rights of property owners and people than the USA is.

 

[toddol1971]

because wound dressing does nothing to promote healing of the wound, the fact that you are reappling proves it.


I agree, but it stops, or helps to prevent disease & bugs does it not? Although it does nothing to promote healing it does'nt stop it. Thus protecting it till it heals. The tree I speak of is healing pretty good, though I'm not sure what the inside of the tree is like after the lightning. I used wound dressing & have'nt used it. I honestly can't see any difference in growth, but I feel it helps keep rot, fungis and bugs away. It must just be certain trees in certain areas cause I've seen all different types of trees with limbs (alot of them) blown off from storm damage & they still look good. Maybe it will take 20 yrs off the tree who knows? Her tree looks like it could lose those horizontals & be just fine. If its that bad that it cant then the whole thing should come down that way noone has to worry about it anymore. Then plant 3 or 4 new trees.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I agree, but it stops, or helps to prevent disease & bugs does it not? Although it does nothing to promote healing it does'nt stop it. Thus protecting it till it heals. The tree I speak of is healing pretty good, though I'm not sure what the inside of the tree is like after the lightning. I used wound dressing & have'nt used it. I honestly can't see any difference in growth, but I feel it helps keep rot, fungis and bugs away. It must just be certain trees in certain areas cause I've seen all different types of trees with limbs (alot of them) blown off from storm damage & they still look good. Maybe it will take 20 yrs off the tree who knows? Her tree looks like it could lose those horizontals & be just fine. If its that bad that it cant then the whole thing should come down that way noone has to worry about it anymore. Then plant 3 or 4 new trees.

You've touched on several topics, not that the thread hasn't turned into several different arguments already, but I'd like to comment on them just the same.
Painting a fresh wound is effective in discouraging insects from being attracted to the cut. Paint does nothing to slow wood decay fungi. Back in the 70's, Dr. Alex Shigo did research that proved just that.
Here is an excellent site with lots of drawings and great information presented in a language that even non-arborists can understand:

Tree Decay, An Expanded Concept

Another great site written in "plain English" is:

Tree dictionary. com

Both these sites do a good job of explaining that trees don't heal or seal, they compartmentalize. When laymen see a tree wound heal, they only see new wood growing over the wound, they're not seeing the walls that protect the tree from decay advancement.
What you are painting is dead wood that has been abandoned by the tree. What is important is that all four walls of CODIT hold strong, not that the outside surface of abandoned wood is protected.

I strongly urge you to look at the sites above, I'm sure you will enjoy them.

 

[toddol1971]

Thanks, lots of good stuff in those links.