Well...that seems to be a touchy subject with certain saw users, so I'm leaving it alone.
My old man would always have a tall dark beer first thing when he got home from the woods, and only one.
He said it was like adding fresh oil to an engine.
nerve damage from extended saw use?
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Well...that seems to be a touchy subject with certain saw users, so I'm leaving it alone.
My old man would always have a tall dark beer first thing when he got home from the woods, and only one.
He said it was like adding fresh oil to an engine.
Another thing I noticed with my time in England VS Oregon is the effect of hardwoods vs softwoods. I am much more fatigued after a day poking a saw in and out of beech than Douglas Fir. D-Fir cuts smooth as silk compared to most other wood I have cut. I spent 5 hours on a red gum euc yesterday with a Mac 250 and 7-10. That took a bit from me, but was a good time anyways. I'll get some vid of the 7-10 and the 262xp in it this weekend.
Slamm
Addicted to ArboristSite
Jacob J.
I second that advice about the caffine, and thanks for writing that, I have a bad, bad habit of drinking energy drinks and they wreck my body. My performance after about 2 hours goes to crap and my recovery time whether logging or when I was bull riding was also quite horrible after drinking them.
My excuse for using them was when trying to stay awake they are "safer" than driving off the road, LOL.
Sam
I second that advice about the caffine, and thanks for writing that, I have a bad, bad habit of drinking energy drinks and they wreck my body. My performance after about 2 hours goes to crap and my recovery time whether logging or when I was bull riding was also quite horrible after drinking them.
My excuse for using them was when trying to stay awake they are "safer" than driving off the road, LOL.
Sam
Those energy drinks are just about the worst thing people take in. They're pretty much all chemicals and in the amounts I see people drinking, quite toxic.
I worked for a guy in the fire service that was drinking 5-6 cans of Red Bull everyday. Eventually he was getting serious heart arrhythmia and his doctor said
either quit the Red Bull or suffer permanent, lasting myocardial damage. A tuna sandwich will do a lot more for a person's body and provide better, lasting
energy.
Another thing those energy drinks do is rot your teeth. They raise the pH levels in your mouth higher than what dental enamel can tolerate.
mt.stalker
ArboristSite Guru
You could try neck/shoulder strenghthening exercises . Easily done with strechy rubber therabands . Do the tricepts too . I had c3 - c6 fusion in neck . Started having intense pain several years after . Went to phys therapy and was almost pain free in 2 weeks .
parrisw
Tree Freak
What saw are you running? If its a Stihl, get rid of it, and buy a Husky, seriously I'm not just saying that to slam Stihl's, I had a 066 and sold it right quick when it made my hands tingle after running it. 372's, 390's, 395's are so dam smooth compared to Stihl's, and it'll help you hands.
parrisw
Tree Freak
GEEEEZEE, makes me sick to see how much of that crap people drink, a guy at work used to drink a few of those Rockstars everyday, now he's down to 1 a day, IMHO that's still too much.
Dennis Cahoon
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nerve damage is what needs to be avoided, like whats been said, don't just let it go! You wreck the nerves and your hands are numb for good. I had both of my hands operated on, while waiting to have my hips replaced......Hahahahahaha!......and it was the best thing I ever did.
parrisw
Tree Freak
I used to go in every 3 months for the doctor to lube my right knee joint, was very interesting, very long big needle put through into the knee joint and pumped full of medical grade lube. Wasn't covered by extended medical so I stopped doing it, wasn't cheap, I'll take some pain and save the money for saws!! LOL
Dennis Cahoon
Addicted to ArboristSite
Or go fast Drugs......a big cartliage eater!
RandyMac
Stiff Member
In 2003 I had Carpal surgery on my right wrist and nerve relocation on the right elbow. The wrist came back fast and was much better. The elbow took lots longer, maybe three months, I would call it about 40% improvement. The major underlying problems are the shoulder injuries, three big impacts and a bunch of malfunctions, that are passed down the arm. Since we are talking hands and arms, I'll leave off with the rest of the wreckage.
I don't run saws all day, but I do run them a fair amount. A few years ago, I developed stiffness and mild but noticeable pain in both my forefingers, oddly enough. Doc said it was arthritis, nothing to do about it basically. I suffered it about three years. Then it went away. Meanwhile, I had bought a 441. I use it about as much as I use the other saws all together. So, about half the time.
I noticed that my hands and arms and elbows and back felt better after using the 441 for a couple hr. as compared with the other saws. Now, I cannot say the 441 had everything or even anything to do with my fingers clearing up after three years. But they did. Like a lot of other people on this forum and who use chainsaws, I do lots of other tough-on-my-hands stuff using hand tools, driving a tractor some and swinging splitting axes and on and on. So it may just be coincidental that my hands cleared up. The doc told me my problem would not ever clear up and would get worse if I stopped using my hands; worst thing you can do with arthritis is stop using the affected area, he said.
Who knows, perhaps I never really had arthritis at all, though my dad had it bad and also had it by the time he was my age. However, using the newer saw absolutely leaves me feeling better at the end of a day. Not that I'm giving up my other saws.....
On the other hand, my wife and I together know maybe a half dozen people with carpal tunnel and similar stuff and none of them got better without medical intervention [surgery eventually] and all of them got worse while they were deciding whether to do any intervention.
I noticed that my hands and arms and elbows and back felt better after using the 441 for a couple hr. as compared with the other saws. Now, I cannot say the 441 had everything or even anything to do with my fingers clearing up after three years. But they did. Like a lot of other people on this forum and who use chainsaws, I do lots of other tough-on-my-hands stuff using hand tools, driving a tractor some and swinging splitting axes and on and on. So it may just be coincidental that my hands cleared up. The doc told me my problem would not ever clear up and would get worse if I stopped using my hands; worst thing you can do with arthritis is stop using the affected area, he said.
Who knows, perhaps I never really had arthritis at all, though my dad had it bad and also had it by the time he was my age. However, using the newer saw absolutely leaves me feeling better at the end of a day. Not that I'm giving up my other saws.....
On the other hand, my wife and I together know maybe a half dozen people with carpal tunnel and similar stuff and none of them got better without medical intervention [surgery eventually] and all of them got worse while they were deciding whether to do any intervention.
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You could try the hand, wrist magnet setup that people with carpal tunnel syndrome wear. I;ve been wearing a magnet belt for my back for years. Couldn't live without it. Sure worth a try. I'd rub them with Blue Goo, at least at night. Good stuff. Will take pain away almost immediately. I get mine at Wal-Mart. Again for the back, but also for the neck. Learned years ago if you want to keep going you gotta learn some tricks! Good luck Brother.
I work with this stuff as part of my job. It is something that I am sensitive to, as well.
There are a variety of nerve, tendon, circulatory, joint, etc., disorders that can be related, or have similar symptoms to those that you describe. For example, swelling tendons (tendonitis) can put pressure on the nerves, etc. It is possible to have multiple conditions, e.g. white finger syndrome (circulatory) and carpal tunnel syndrome (nerve) and arthritis (joints) at the same time. Some of these are progressive - i.e. you never fully 'recover', and symptoms reoccur quicker with each exposure. Age is a factor. You need to get medical diagnosis and advice on your personal situation from a health care professional, not on-line.
Several of these disorders have been associated with chainsaw use for a long time. Cold weather and smoking can exacerbate these conditions, especially the circulatory ones.
As far as the saws, there are a number of things you can do to reduce your vibration exposure; some of which have been posted above. Even the cost of a new saw ($700 - $1,000) can be relatively cheap compared to the cost of medical care and disability:
- use newer, quality saws with reduced anti-vibration (A/V) technology;
- keep your saw tuned;
- keep your chain sharp, and don't grind down the depth gauges excessively;
- choose reduced vibration chain designs (clipped heels on cutters) and avoid skip tooth chains;
- limit your exposure - spread it out over time to allow for recovery;
- wear A/V gloves - not just padded or impact reducing gloves. Again, these can be much more expensive ($40/pair), but like the old Loreal commercials, 'you are worth it'. I like the ones with the air bubbles better than the foam or gel padded ones. They should cover your full hand, including fingers, and not be too tight - you don't want to constrict circulation.
Here are some manufacturers of A/V gloves - you can check with site sponsors to see which they carry, or if they offer other brands:
IMPACTO Ergonomic Personal Protection, Anti-vibration Glove, Impact Gloves, wrist supports, kneepads, insoles
Home
Anti-Vibration Products
Some technical stuff:
NIOSH Publication Number 89-106: NIOSH Criteria Documents: Criteria for a Recommended Standard: Occupational Exposure to Hand-Arm Vibration | CDC/NIOSH
DHHS (NIOSH) Publication No. 83-110
Philbert
There are a variety of nerve, tendon, circulatory, joint, etc., disorders that can be related, or have similar symptoms to those that you describe. For example, swelling tendons (tendonitis) can put pressure on the nerves, etc. It is possible to have multiple conditions, e.g. white finger syndrome (circulatory) and carpal tunnel syndrome (nerve) and arthritis (joints) at the same time. Some of these are progressive - i.e. you never fully 'recover', and symptoms reoccur quicker with each exposure. Age is a factor. You need to get medical diagnosis and advice on your personal situation from a health care professional, not on-line.
Several of these disorders have been associated with chainsaw use for a long time. Cold weather and smoking can exacerbate these conditions, especially the circulatory ones.
As far as the saws, there are a number of things you can do to reduce your vibration exposure; some of which have been posted above. Even the cost of a new saw ($700 - $1,000) can be relatively cheap compared to the cost of medical care and disability:
- use newer, quality saws with reduced anti-vibration (A/V) technology;
- keep your saw tuned;
- keep your chain sharp, and don't grind down the depth gauges excessively;
- choose reduced vibration chain designs (clipped heels on cutters) and avoid skip tooth chains;
- limit your exposure - spread it out over time to allow for recovery;
- wear A/V gloves - not just padded or impact reducing gloves. Again, these can be much more expensive ($40/pair), but like the old Loreal commercials, 'you are worth it'. I like the ones with the air bubbles better than the foam or gel padded ones. They should cover your full hand, including fingers, and not be too tight - you don't want to constrict circulation.
Here are some manufacturers of A/V gloves - you can check with site sponsors to see which they carry, or if they offer other brands:
IMPACTO Ergonomic Personal Protection, Anti-vibration Glove, Impact Gloves, wrist supports, kneepads, insoles
Home
Anti-Vibration Products
Some technical stuff:
NIOSH Publication Number 89-106: NIOSH Criteria Documents: Criteria for a Recommended Standard: Occupational Exposure to Hand-Arm Vibration | CDC/NIOSH
DHHS (NIOSH) Publication No. 83-110
Philbert
garyischofield
ArboristSite Operative
wow-I'm on those gloves
Thanks for the wealth of information.The impacto gloves look like a bonafide answer.I try to be very persnickety about having the rakers right on the money. I never was big on pushing on a marginal chain,but even less now.Gary
Thanks for the wealth of information.The impacto gloves look like a bonafide answer.I try to be very persnickety about having the rakers right on the money. I never was big on pushing on a marginal chain,but even less now.Gary
mt.stalker
ArboristSite Guru
Very good advice from philbert . Especially limiting your exposure times . I have a degenerative spine , from the neck down to my azz . It's been flocked up since I was 15 yrs. old . Now I'm 51 . I generally limit my saw time per outing to one tankfull of gas , generally about a face cord of firewood . I still have pain , but wtf it is what it is , and the work is actually good for it , as long as you work smart and also don't over do it .
HARRY BARKER
ArboristSite Guru
blue goo??
Mt.Stalker - Depending upon where and what you cut, you might try one of the better quality electric chainsaws, which are lighter and vibrate less than most 2-cycle saws. Obviously, not so good in the woods, or for falling. But if some of your cutting is near your house or shop (within 100 feet), it might be another way to extend your cutting for that wood.
I have cut up a lot of firewood in my yard with my Makita UC4000 (13 amps) and a 16 inch bar.
Take care.
Philbert
I had to swap to using the left hand on the "mouse" about 12 years ago - but in my case it seems to be mostly coused by Arthritis.
Also, I use the left hand on the starter rope, at least partly to spare my right hand from it - but as a bonus, I discovered that it actually is the better way to do it anyway!
Yes. I confused my co-workers. I switched to running the mouse with the left hand. My other hand got better.
paccity
Addicted to ArboristSite
yup saws will get your claw on after many moons. my hands are always in the claw position when at rest. when i raced back in the 70's and early 80's i would have to slide my hands off the end's of the bars because my hand's would not open up. had that happen with saws to.
