Oh boy, this ain't good, MS441

[MCW]

Since all the kits are made the same it should be no surprise that two failed back to back. Every one of them should fail.

Not necessarily as port bevelling can vary from kit to kit depending on the quality of the kit. Some if not all have bevelling finished by hand and some of the bevellers must be blind.

 

[ol'homey]

Good info MCW. That helps explain why results vary with these AM kits from "still working fine" to "oh crap it caught a ring the first time out". Since they're made in China probably some poor 10 yr old old with a dremel doing the beveling who may or may not know what the part he's handling is or is used for. Well that's it for AM p/c kits for me until i hear the QC has gotten a lot better. I've installed a few AM kits in the past mostly on the Stihl BR400 and 420 blowers run by the landscapers at 7500 rpm all day every day. After a couple years of commercial use the piston would get so worn out you could hear it rattle around in the cylinder. Most of the time I would just put in a new OEM piston/rings and it was good for another couple years. If the nicasil was messed up I would put on an AM p/c (I think they were from Greece?). Never had a problem either way and never did anything to the kits other than normal install. I now know it was just dumb luck that I didn't have AM p/c kits blowing up all over town! More recently the landscapers moved to the BR600. No ports to worry about beveling or catching a ring on. Unfortunately they tend to drop the exhaust valve which most of the time destroys the cylinder/case leaving you with an expensive paperweight not worth the cost to repair.

 

[blsnelling]

Like I say most of my AF experience is pretty outdated, but I still seem to see the same quality control problems today that occurred 8-10 years ago. I personally see no reason to not buy a good used cylinder and buy a meteor piston vs going the AF market route.

And there in lies the rub. We've been waiting for years for them to get these things right.

 

[DarthTater]

And there in lies the rub. We've been waiting for years for them to get these things right.

not meaning to get into the political bs again but in that case it is high time to quit "waiting" for them to get it right and get people who know what they are doing back to making things right the first time.

that is something that is a pet peeve of mine, their are extremely few true "Craftsmen" (or Artisans if you prefer) anymore, Personally I don't mind Paying the extra (even when I can't really afford the extra) when I get top quality in exchange.

Quality always pays of in the end IMHO!:cool2:

 

[thomas1]

not meaning to get into the political bs again but in that case it is high time to quit "waiting" for them to get it right and get people who know what they are doing back to making things right the first time.

that is something that is a pet peeve of mine, their are extremely few true "Craftsmen" (or Artisans if you prefer) anymore, Personally I don't mind Paying the extra (even when I can't really afford the extra) when I get top quality in exchange.

Quality always pays of in the end IMHO!:cool2:

There is a simple way to make sure it's right the first time and you will have to pay a little extra.

Call Randy.

 

[MCW]

I now know it was just dumb luck that I didn't have AM p/c kits blowing up all over town!

Not the case at all. As mentioned there are bad, average, and good kits. With the good kits I could near guarantee you'd be fine, with the bad kits I can guarantee you won't!
Too many AM kits get sold to be all bad and if they were all crap people would have stopped buying them years ago.
Remember that most people only care if a saw cuts wood but the last thing we need is people second guessing AM kits due to some small flaw that would otherwise go unnoticed for years.
When the top gets torn off a piston well that is indeed, sort of noticeable
I've sold 100's of kits with only a couple of complaints/returns and that was on kits I hadn't checked properly before sale. I think it is very important to check any kit going out. OEM kits get checked before sale but their quality control is done in house. Unfortunately the customer generally has to do the QC with AM kits unless the seller checks them beforehand.

 

[Modifiedmark]

There is a simple way to make sure it's right the first time and you will have to pay a little extra.

Call Randy.

No, you should be able to bolt and go. Period. Buying a cheap kit and then paying someone like Randy makes little economic sense at all if someone is just wanting to get a saw back in stock running service. Might just as well pay for OEM up front.

Not the case at all. As mentioned there are bad, average, and good kits. With the good kits I could near guarantee you'd be fine, with the bad kits I can guarantee you won't!
Too many AM kits get sold to be all bad and if they were all crap people would have stopped buying them years ago.
Remember that most people only care if a saw cuts wood but the last thing we need is people second guessing AM kits due to some small flaw that would otherwise go unnoticed for years.
When the top gets torn off a piston well that is indeed, sort of noticeable
I've sold 100's of kits with only a couple of complaints/returns and that was on kits I hadn't checked properly before sale. I think it is very important to check any kit going out. OEM kits get checked before sale but their quality control is done in house. Unfortunately the customer generally has to do the QC with AM kits unless the seller checks them beforehand.

Matt, you keep saying this and I believe you. Thing is how does this personally do me any good?

Where can I get a AM kit that has been personally checked over by someone like you? Where is a list of AM thats safe to buy and one for AM not to buy? Just asking.


BTW the 441's owner came here yesterday with a new OEM Stihl piston as thats what the dealer ordered insead of a Piston and cyl kit!! Our local Stihl dealers are the best. (sarcasm noted)

 

[thomas1]

No, you should be able to bolt and go. Period. Buying a cheap kit and then paying someone like Randy makes little economic sense at all if someone is just wanting to get a saw back in stock running service. Might just as well pay for OEM up front.

Not necessarily, Mark.

Say an aftermarket p/c kit is $100 and an OEM one is $350. If Randy (Mastermind) is charging $200 for a "blueprinted" kit that's still saving $150. Lots of people say they're willing to pay more for an aftermarket kit that is known to be good, Randy is providing those.

He is just doing the QC that the manufacturer should be doing themselves. Until they have QC up to snuff on the other side of the world there is a third party QC company involved. People say they are willing to pay more for QC, all the better if that QC is in America.

I don't think Randy is claiming to do anything that anyone else can't do themselves, but what he is doing is taking the liability.

 

[sachsmo]

I've been trying to avoid this thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but.

Since it's all out here anyways;

Mark,

do you really think Stihl (or any other OPE)

Will warranty any part that was not installed by one of their accredited repair facilities????????????????????


Even in the snowballs chance, would they replace after someone modified it?


It's a biotch, but hell I've bought cylinder heads for $3000 a pair that needed work!

 

[indiansprings]

It's sad that a company that has the financial ability doesn't make the investment (take Bailey's for example) to hire a top shelf engineer with a back ground in cylinder mfg and place him in Tawain and let him or a team of two or three develop a high quality line of plug and play replacement cylinders/pistons, there is a huge market. Hell, I sell Stihl oem and I think the mark up is way to steep on the oem replacements, I'd venture to say Husky is the same ball park. There is a fortune to be made on quality replacements.
The problem is pricing, I recently priced a very nice, almost pristine OEM Stihl 660 Mahle cylinder, piston, rings, wrist pin and rod bearing for 160.00 shipped anywhere in the continental US and the customer thought it was on the high side, and I totally respect his opinion, but were is the point at what people will pay for aftermarket kits, a new 660 mahle piston/cylinder runs 330.00, with no rod bearing. You can't have oem quality and expect to pay 100-125.00 a kit.
I feel for you Mark you must have some boneheads in your local Stihl dealership, they are not all that way.

 

[hoeyrd2110]

You can't have oem quality and expect to pay 100-125.00 a kit.

if they charged maybe $200 for an OEM kit which they would still make money off of it would be a no brainer. a factory ps540 dolmar kit is $180...thats a no brainer. but if the kit was say 250+ it just wouldn't be worth it. if dolmar can charge 180 for a mahle p/c kit why are the rest of them jacking the prices up? there would be no aftermarket if they were competitively priced.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

if dolmar can charge 180 for a mahle p/c kit why are the rest of them jacking the prices up?

Because people will pay it!.....thinking the quality is worth the money......but is it really?:msp_sneaky:

 

[Mastermind]

The "Blueprinted" kit I sell is $200.00 shipped.

I check port bevels, smooth rough casting lines and flash. I also match the exhaust flange to the muffler (a pet peeve of Bradley's). The squish is also set at .025 on my cases by cutting the cylinder base on a lathe, (this insures that the base is square and flat). Enough Loctite 518 is provided to install the kit and since it's a Meteor kit a known quality ring and piston with a new wrist pin bearing is included.

For $275.00 I sell a set with the squish band cut. This kit includes the features of the "Blueprinted" kit but the squish band is raised .040 (on most kits) and the cylinder base is turned to set the squish at .025. This allows someone to do their own port work.

The fully ported kit is 400.00.

As you can see this doesn't really save the customer a lot of money on a ported saw. The thing is I will not port a saw with an aftermarket top end (too many unknowns). If a guy has a saw with a roached top end and wants to get it going again with OEM parts and then get it ported you can see this being a cheaper route. I'll be glad to assemble, vac test, replace seals.....etc. We rebuild saws and then port them regularly. But if his saw runs well......just send it in for port work.

 

[MCW]

Matt, you keep saying this and I believe you. Thing is how does this personally do me any good?
Where can I get a AM kit that has been personally checked over by someone like you? Where is a list of AM thats safe to buy and one for AM not to buy? Just asking.

It probably doesn't do you any good at all Mark however I am just replying to other members who seem to be putting all aftermarket kits in the same junk basket without having actually seen all aftermarket kits - comments such as "I now know it was just dumb luck that I didn't have AM p/c kits blowing up all over town!" are well worth replying to.
I have a very nice looking MS441 kit sitting in my shed however not having a 441 to test it on I'm not going to open my mouth and say that this particular kit is any good. It is not from the same manufacturer as the one I listed earlier.
In the US Randy looks like your best bet at this stage as per his previous reply. Anybody that doesn't check kits prior to sale is asking for trouble as far as I'm concerned and it doesn't take much for a seller to open the box and do a few checks prior to sale.

 

[Jacob J.]

There is a simple way to make sure it's right the first time and you will have to pay a little extra.

Call Randy.

 

[indiansprings]

if they charged maybe $200 for an OEM kit which they would still make money off of it would be a no brainer. a factory ps540 dolmar kit is $180...thats a no brainer. but if the kit was say 250+ it just wouldn't be worth it. if dolmar can charge 180 for a mahle p/c kit why are the rest of them jacking the prices up? there would be no aftermarket if they were competitively priced.

Lot of difference in the two cylinders compared, as the bore size goes up so does the price, same with the stratro jugs, lot more difficulty and maching involved in the process.

 

[sachsmo]

Harharhar,

dat be cuzin ed

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

Randy......Your fully ported cylinders, do you chamfer your vertical port edges?

Just wondering, because I don't!.......I believe chamfering the vertical edges cause the ring to pop out more into the port. I just polish the verticals, and really don't chamfer heavily the horizontal edges, but will use a ball hone and then polish. I change rings more than pistons, unless the piston show heavy wear.

 

[Mastermind]

Randy......Your fully ported cylinders, do you chamfer your vertical port edges?

Just wondering, because I don't!.......I believe chamfering the vertical edges cause the ring to pop out more into the port. I just polish the verticals, and really don't chamfer heavily the horizontal edges, but will use a ball hone and then polish. I change rings more than pistons, unless the piston show heavy wear.

I use a diamond ball shaped burr for bevels. Like you said....I just bevel the horizontal edges. Most of the work I do after that is with sand paper to slick things up.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

Good!......I think some will chamfer deep all the way around a port. That's a mistake IMO!