Old Growth Cedar Windthrow. What's a fair price for a landowner?

[checkthisout]

I have a few acres that has never been logged and is covered with old-growth cedar. The windthrows are laying on top of ground, many of them on top of each other. I have around 15 total (that are huge). 6 feet up the trees are about 8 feet in diameter and go from there. There is also a lot of smaller but still old growth stuff covered up on the ground that I believe is suitable. I won't be harvesting any standing timber except for the possibility of a few snags. Anyways,

I was quoted $250 a cord by the time it made it to the mill by two operators. This seems low to me @ a quote of $850 a cord at the mill. (Mill is 45 miles away)

Would I benefit by renting my own equipment (and having a professional excavator operator, a friend operate it) and hiring a logging truck to take it to the mill or is something that should only be trusted to a professional timber harvester?

 

[northmanlogging]

Have you tried finding a shake/shingle mill? They are usually scrambling to find wood. Renting an excavator is expensive, $1200. for a week rental plus delivery plus fuel (and they use allot of fuel) and that is for a small one, if the wood is really 6' dia your going to need a much larger machine, or you could rent a bull dozer and skid them out, they are a little cheaper to rent but not much.

Before you start, call a few mills and find the best price, what lengths they want, can they handle wood that large. Also how rotten is the wood? If its been down for awhile then it could be junk and worthless, might not hurt to have the mills buyer come out and have a looksy.

One more thing... The state gets all sorts of antsy with ceder (they think its worth a bunch of money) consider getting a permit, keeps dnr out of your hair. If they catch you without a permit they can charge you triple stumpage which is about five times what you'l get from the mill...

Ok one more thing... Yer gonna need a BIG saw to make this an easy job, 6' is allot of wood, a 36" bar or better will be necessary

 

[northmanlogging]

OK one more thing... If the loggers are paying buy the "cord" it had better be going to a shake/shingle mill, everyone else around here pays by the 1000 bf, I'm done now

 

[madhatte]

According to this current WA Dept Of Revenue log price table, $250/cord at 600 bf/cord, they're offering you about 60% of the going rate.

Here's my math: 1/(($250/cord)*(cord/600bf)*((mbf/$approx700)/(1000bf/mbf))=59.6%

 

[Joe46]

I'm kinda thinking along the lines of northmanlogging. Finding good down OGCedar is pretty rare any more. But I've been out of the game for a long time now.

 

[checkthisout]

Have you tried finding a shake/shingle mill? They are usually scrambling to find wood. Renting an excavator is expensive, $1200. for a week rental plus delivery plus fuel (and they use allot of fuel) and that is for a small one, if the wood is really 6' dia your going to need a much larger machine, or you could rent a bull dozer and skid them out, they are a little cheaper to rent but not much.

Before you start, call a few mills and find the best price, what lengths they want, can they handle wood that large. Also how rotten is the wood? If its been down for awhile then it could be junk and worthless, might not hurt to have the mills buyer come out and have a looksy.

One more thing... The state gets all sorts of antsy with ceder (they think its worth a bunch of money) consider getting a permit, keeps dnr out of your hair. If they catch you without a permit they can charge you triple stumpage which is about five times what you'l get from the mill...

Ok one more thing... Yer gonna need a BIG saw to make this an easy job, 6' is allot of wood, a 36" bar or better will be necessary

Thanks for the reply. The wood varies in condition. I took a slice out of one at the property line where it was about 6' in diameter and it was solid all the way through. I can tell the wood has pockets of rot with a lot of real nice stuff mixed in it as well. I want some money for it before it leaves my property and then I want it processed and measured at the mill with me paying some difference back to mill owner or him paying some difference back to me.

It's all business and I have a hard time trusting people especially during these hard economic times. I know they are low bidding me which I completely respect and understand.

I talked to 3 mills. One wanted to sell me their mill, the other got very excited but then backed out, the other wants the wood real bad but again, they gave what I feel was a lowball offer.

I guess the market isn't too hot right now but I know it will come back. The main thing I'm trying to figure out are the costs to harvest and transport. $500-$600 a cord for processing costs seems high to me. I would have expected maybe $250 a cord but I guess I get what I can get.

 

[checkthisout]

OK one more thing... If the loggers are paying buy the "cord" it had better be going to a shake/shingle mill, everyone else around here pays by the 1000 bf, I'm done now

Yes, it's going to a shake mill (those seem to be the only mills around this area) but I know some will be diverted and cut up for nice clear finish wood.


I'm think I need a CAT 330C/D size machine in order to handle the wood. This machine rents at about $2600 a week with transport costs around $800.00 to get it to and from the working area. It would be nice to be able to get something smaller but if it can't pick up the trees then pleh.

I was going to buy an 066 with like a 60" bar (I think I can get one for around a $800 bucks) and then sell it when I'm done.

I already have the needed Sheriffs and DNR permit.

The problem now is the rains have started. This may have to wait until next spring. Thanks for the replies.

 

[checkthisout]

According to this current WA Dept Of Revenue log price table, $250/cord at 600 bf/cord, they're offering you about 60% of the going rate.

Here's my math: 1/(($250/cord)*(cord/600bf)*((mbf/$approx700)/(1000bf/mbf))=59.6%

Excellent! I really don't want to part with the wood for less than $450 a cord and it looks like that's about right. Thanks for the conversion there. :msp_thumbup:

a few of the trees are up the air because they are laying across other trees. The picture is crappy but the tree below is a pic of one of those trees. This tree is about 8 feet the base.

View attachment 259183

Here is a live specimen. Looks like it gobbled up a Doug Fir around the time the constitution was signed.

View attachment 259184

 

[madhatte]

Get it cruised by a forester, then plan the sale as a lump-sum contract. Let somebody else do all the work and pay all the transportation and equipment costs. Figure out whether you can do it at a profit or not. If the numbers don't pan out for you, let the wood stay. Don't disturb the land on speculation. Time is money. The land, as well as the trees, will be there later.

 

[H 2 H]

Welcome to As

 

[redprospector]

Thanks for the reply. The wood varies in condition. I took a slice out of one at the property line where it was about 6' in diameter and it was solid all the way through. I can tell the wood has pockets of rot with a lot of real nice stuff mixed in it as well. I want some money for it before it leaves my property and then I want it processed and measured at the mill with me paying some difference back to mill owner or him paying some difference back to me.

It's all business and I have a hard time trusting people especially during these hard economic times. I know they are low bidding me which I completely respect and understand.

I talked to 3 mills. One wanted to sell me their mill, the other got very excited but then backed out, the other wants the wood real bad but again, they gave what I feel was a lowball offer.

I guess the market isn't too hot right now but I know it will come back. The main thing I'm trying to figure out are the costs to harvest and transport. $500-$600 a cord for processing costs seems high to me. I would have expected maybe $250 a cord but I guess I get what I can get.

I'm not in the PNW, but like you said "It's all business". I'm going to tell you something and I hope you don't get mad about it. Please consider it "constructive criticizim.
To be successful in business you have to build some sort of relationship. A relationship without some sort of trust won't work. Period.
An old fellow that was very close to me, once told me that the person that is most afraid of being screwed is the person who is most likely to screw you. This little saying has proved itself to be true time after time in my experience.
When I'm looking at a job, and the land owner acts as if they are afraid I am going to try to cheat them I will usually walk away. If I don't walk away my bid will be far in my favor trying to cover the problems that are likely to follow.
The guy that offered to sell you the mill may have realy been hurting, or may have been telling you that you were out of line.
The one got very excited, but then backed out. Well, you have to imagine there was something that made them want to back out.
The last guy gave you a lowball offer. May mean he's not very interested. Or it could be that is the going rate, and not low ball at all.

I hope you are right, and the market comes back. The question you have to ask yourself is; Will my cedar still be good when that happens.
Like I said to start with, I hope you don't get mad about this. It's just the way it hit's me when reading this thread.

Andy

 

[Slamm]

Thanks for the reply. The wood varies in condition. I took a slice out of one at the property line where it was about 6' in diameter and it was solid all the way through. I can tell the wood has pockets of rot with a lot of real nice stuff mixed in it as well. I want some money for it before it leaves my property and then I want it processed and measured at the mill with me paying some difference back to mill owner or him paying some difference back to me.

I'm going to guess that, that isn't going to happen.

Sam

 

[checkthisout]

I'm not in the PNW, but like you said "It's all business". I'm going to tell you something and I hope you don't get mad about it. Please consider it "constructive criticizim.
To be successful in business you have to build some sort of relationship. A relationship without some sort of trust won't work. Period.
An old fellow that was very close to me, once told me that the person that is most afraid of being screwed is the person who is most likely to screw you. This little saying has proved itself to be true time after time in my experience.
When I'm looking at a job, and the land owner acts as if they are afraid I am going to try to cheat them I will usually walk away. If I don't walk away my bid will be far in my favor trying to cover the problems that are likely to follow.
The guy that offered to sell you the mill may have realy been hurting, or may have been telling you that you were out of line.
The one got very excited, but then backed out. Well, you have to imagine there was something that made them want to back out.
The last guy gave you a lowball offer. May mean he's not very interested. Or it could be that is the going rate, and not low ball at all.

I hope you are right, and the market comes back. The question you have to ask yourself is; Will my cedar still be good when that happens.
Like I said to start with, I hope you don't get mad about this. It's just the way it hit's me when reading this thread.

Andy

Not mad in the least. And thanks for your insight. I'm doing my best not to be the psycho, fickle landowner.

Here is my issue. I am being offered a lump sum for what I have shown them I have.

You follow me?

With old growth cedar, there is a lot on top that is visible but there is also a lot that's covered up with deadfall and buried under thick vegetation.

In other words it's impossible to know exactly what I have until harvest has commenced and the ground gets disturbed and vegetation gets removed. I walked it with a brushcutter in hand last week and found 4 more enormous logs.

I have been warned by several people that the area I am operating in is known for shady people. This is not my assumption, just what many people have told me. I didn't get that vibe from the two interested buyers I have talked to.

I think these mills are generally short on wood so the guy that backed out knee jerked at the opportunity to get more wood but realized he had 60 unprocessed cords sitting around his mill, 50 "ready to fly" and many pallets of unsold product. He told me to hit him up next spring. He said he would still buy the wood but said he wasn't willing to pay fair market value for it. The guys that asked me if I wanted their mill must have had at 80 pallets of shingles sitting around and weren't running their saws.

Anyways. I have been told that I should get money for the wood before it leaves my property. To me this means I should do a lump sum sale but it's hard for me to do that when I am not sure what I have. So then my other option is to let the wood leave the property and let the mill owner process it and see what I have and then pay me based on the number of cords he is able to get but that would mean letting the wood leave my property before recieving payment.

Just letting you into my thought process here.

 

[checkthisout]

I'm going to guess that, that isn't going to happen.

Sam

I realize that.

 

[checkthisout]

Get it cruised by a forester, then plan the sale as a lump-sum contract. Let somebody else do all the work and pay all the transportation and equipment costs. Figure out whether you can do it at a profit or not. If the numbers don't pan out for you, let the wood stay. Don't disturb the land on speculation. Time is money. The land, as well as the trees, will be there later.

There is profit even at the low offer.

My intent is to make a road and use the property to camp on and I would like to do that soon. My fear is that once I open a driveway that even with a gate, I will opening myself up to the opportunity for timber theft.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[checkthisout]

Welcome to As

Thank you!

 

[northmanlogging]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you're out on the peninsula... to be honest when you said ya got 6' diameter trees my first thought was no f'n way... anyway most of the logging I do I don't get paid until it goes to the mill and the landowner don't get paid either, just how I do business... wish the mill would pay before maybe then I could afford fuel... its unlikely as Hel that the mills will pay a lump sum for an unknown quantity of wood, and even more unlikely that they are going to pay before it crosses their gate, the mills are cagier then the loggers (and that's say'n somethin).

If the loggers are going to give you 40% then that's a pretty good deal, there is a bunch of work involved in getting wood out of the woods, and it involves some pretty big and expensive machines. When its all over and the smoke has cleared the logger will probably make about as much as you or less (most likely less). If the ground yer on is fairly flat, as in no Sherpas or balay lines to walk the property line, their biggest danger is going to be those windfall pick up sticks logs, Bucking big wood like that is always fun but throw in the up in the air and who knows where its going once its free and its very possible some one is going to the hospital.

It been many years since I have had any kind of involvement with shake blocks but my understanding is they buck into rounds and split on site then stack em on flat bed trucks to take em to the mill, if'n that's still the case then you really want someone else to do the work for you, cutting blocks takes a darn good saw hand, and splitting em is brutal back braking work,

There are mills/brokers that take ceder in the Puget Sound area it just might cost an arm and yer first born to truck them out there,

If you really want to get more money sit on em until the housing market and economy picks back up a little bit, Best of luck to ya though.

 

[northmanlogging]

If you are super worried about getting ripped off then plan on spending a week or two on the site and get a load slip with every truck, its entirely to easy to slip a load or two by when the homeowner isn't home, most guys are honest enough to not do that although it still happens, or break down and hire a forester its their job to keep an eye on the logger (among other things)

 

[redprospector]

Not mad in the least. And thanks for your insight. I'm doing my best not to be the psycho, fickle landowner.

Here is my issue. I am being offered a lump sum for what I have shown them I have.

You follow me?

With old growth cedar, there is a lot on top that is visible but there is also a lot that's covered up with deadfall and buried under thick vegetation.

In other words it's impossible to know exactly what I have until harvest has commenced and the ground gets disturbed and vegetation gets removed. I walked it with a brushcutter in hand last week and found 4 more enormous logs.

I have been warned by several people that the area I am operating in is known for shady people. This is not my assumption, just what many people have told me. I didn't get that vibe from the two interested buyers I have talked to.

I think these mills are generally short on wood so the guy that backed out knee jerked at the opportunity to get more wood but realized he had 60 unprocessed cords sitting around his mill, 50 "ready to fly" and many pallets of unsold product. He told me to hit him up next spring. He said he would still buy the wood but said he wasn't willing to pay fair market value for it. The guys that asked me if I wanted their mill must have had at 80 pallets of shingles sitting around and weren't running their saws.

Anyways. I have been told that I should get money for the wood before it leaves my property. To me this means I should do a lump sum sale but it's hard for me to do that when I am not sure what I have. So then my other option is to let the wood leave the property and let the mill owner process it and see what I have and then pay me based on the number of cords he is able to get but that would mean letting the wood leave my property before recieving payment.

Just letting you into my thought process here.

Like I said before; I'm not in the PNW, so I won't even try to pretend to know what your best option is. Where I am is known for one or two "shady people". Hopefully you can find someone who has had a good experience with the contractor they used, and work from there. Good luck, and welcome.

Andy

 

[Humptulips]

My2 cents

Absolutely put this off if you can. The market is terrible right now. As an example my friend contracts the hauling of spaults from a number of mills. At one time they were hauling as many as 110 chip trailers/month. He told me they had hauled 2 this month. Most mills are sitting on a lot of inventory and they are not going to be hungry for the wood to pay top dollar.

Interested to know where this is at. I see salal and shot berry bushes in the picture so I would assume right along the coast. That means to me mostly shingle wood. If true the $850/cord is a good price.
As for costs to cut the wood I would think 300/cord would be in the neighborhood but there are variables. Closest road to fly to? Will it have to be improved?

You're right not to build a road in until ready to harvest.
I might be able to give you a reference to someone if I knew where you were at.
You'd probably get more selling on a cutout but you need to be able to trust the mill.