Old Growth Cedar Windthrow. What's a fair price for a landowner?

[checkthisout]

Exactly what is it that we buy when we purchase a piece of ground?

The only true thing you are buying is the ability to profit off the land on a resale and the ability to list it as an asset.

And of course whatever is on the title.

The trick to owning property is not to improve it much. Keep the money in your pocket and do the bare minimum you have to do to live there. Keep the grass cut and stuff but don't go hog wild fancying up the place which will only drive up the assessed value.

 

[KYLogger]

In my humble opinion shop around for some gypo loggers, I realize that things are a little different in the Appalachian hardwoods compared to the PNW, however a logger is a logger. I typically cut on percentages for the landowner, be it 65%-35%, 50%-50% etc......Checks for the landowner are made out at the mill and are either hand delivered or mailed by me or the mill's secretary so there is no fear of bein hoo doooed.

Just my $.02

Tom

 

[OlympicYJ]

Checkthisout, I can tell your up in the 101 area. Worked allot of the promised land myself and been around the shake rats, in an official capacity, wouldn't ever trust any of them with my dog. It sounds like you are pretty aware of the value of your wood, its utilization and what it will take to get it out so I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but those buried logs are worth quite a bit too. I can get you a number for a guy that specializes in cedar salvage operations concerning valuation and overview of the sale. He can tell you who you can trust and who you can't. He's a contractor and does this for one of the major timber companies in the area, and some small forestry consulting on the side. Hump may even know the guy. He's a wizzard at figuring out how much volume is on site. If interested shoot me a Private Message and I can give you the details.

As others have said watch them. There are some okay cedar guys out there but even the good ones push the limits. Watch the wood leave your property every day if you can and keep a tally. That's what the guy I mentioned above does when they're flying blocks out. He keeps a very close tally on what is flown. Absolutely make sure what can be taken is marked or what can't be taken is marked clearly. You would think this sort of thing is clearly evident but I have personally seen clearly evident turned into a "Oh they didn't understand" which is really they just got caught and put up a B.S. excuse. I agree with redrospector about trust and getting screwed but when it comes to shake rats never trust and always watch out for yourself. You're a small landowner and are at a disadvantage if you get screwed. These guys depend on the big timber owners for a steady supply of wood, well as steady as can be, and if they completely screw up too bad they are out in the cold so the biggies can fine them and other stuff but you will have a hard time. The more i roll it over get a good cruise done on the standing and downed timber so if you do have to go to court you have physical and professional evidence and keep that tally so you know if more is being taken out than should. I doubt you will have problems but when it comes to cedar better safe than sorry.

Wes

 

[madhatte]

Very true, water is your enemy. Anyone looks and finds a trickle of water it can be a problem.

...WHICH REMINDS ME -- we haven't mentioned the real PITA agency in this state, Department Of Ecology, which should actually be called "Department Of Dirty Water". You may have a DNR permit but DOE can still bite you. I hate to recommend even speaking to those folks, but you really don't want to play the "apology vs permission" odds with that particular agency. I'd at very least give them a call, have an inspector come by and bless the DNR's recommendations, and make sure you have everything documented. This will save you big bucks in the future.

 

[Humptulips]

Would it be bad if I went in with my own equipment (not me but a pro operator friend of mine who works for cheap) and stacked the logs so a self-loader could take them to the mill?

My reason for doing it this way is simply because I am turning the area into a campsite when I'm done.

The loggers could build me a rough road but I would need to sync up their presence with a dumptruck for hauling gravel from a nearby pit. In other words I'd have to get them to stick around to load the truck at the pit while the dump takes gravel down to the site.

Of course. I'm starting to ask too many questions.

My gut sense tells me I should just stay out of it (as others have said) and let the pros handle it all.

I'll take some more pics next time I'm out. I assume you guys are always open to viewing good wood ####.

Nothing wrong with doing the work yourself. Good luck finding a self loader though. Why not load it out when you have the machine there?
To me it all boils down to trust. If you sell the cedar you have to find someone you can trust unless you sell it lump sum and money upfront. I think you will have to take a little less if you go the lump sum route.
Other option is to cut it yourself and sell it a PU load at a time. That way if you trust no one they can't sting you to bad. NO money, no unload!

 

[northmanlogging]

absolutely nothing wrong with doing it yourself, its just a pain in shorts, that's why people hire loggers:msp_tongue:. Seriously it can be done, and more power to ya, but it is allot of dangerous work. there are self loaders out there I am compiling a list, but for now they are in the snohomish and skagit county areas, not that they would mind traveling, it just costs you more money. If you buy an 066/660 stihl like you said earlier it will pull a 48-54" bar but an 880/088 would pull it and then some, but good luck finding a used 088/880 (I think guys are sleeping with em and not there wifeys).

Be super careful when bucking off those windfall root balls, just cause most of em go the right way does not mean they all do, and there big enough that you can't run fast enough to get out of the way, its always quite the rush to cut em though. Good luck

Oh yeah and kudos on getting all the permits, its a pain but it keeps you out of court, usually

 

[checkthisout]

Checkthisout, I can tell your up in the 101 area. Worked allot of the promised land myself and been around the shake rats, in an official capacity, wouldn't ever trust any of them with my dog. It sounds like you are pretty aware of the value of your wood, its utilization and what it will take to get it out so I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but those buried logs are worth quite a bit too. I can get you a number for a guy that specializes in cedar salvage operations concerning valuation and overview of the sale. He can tell you who you can trust and who you can't. He's a contractor and does this for one of the major timber companies in the area, and some small forestry consulting on the side. Hump may even know the guy. He's a wizzard at figuring out how much volume is on site. If interested shoot me a Private Message and I can give you the details.

As others have said watch them. There are some okay cedar guys out there but even the good ones push the limits. Watch the wood leave your property every day if you can and keep a tally. That's what the guy I mentioned above does when they're flying blocks out. He keeps a very close tally on what is flown. Absolutely make sure what can be taken is marked or what can't be taken is marked clearly. You would think this sort of thing is clearly evident but I have personally seen clearly evident turned into a "Oh they didn't understand" which is really they just got caught and put up a B.S. excuse. I agree with redrospector about trust and getting screwed but when it comes to shake rats never trust and always watch out for yourself. You're a small landowner and are at a disadvantage if you get screwed. These guys depend on the big timber owners for a steady supply of wood, well as steady as can be, and if they completely screw up too bad they are out in the cold so the biggies can fine them and other stuff but you will have a hard time. The more i roll it over get a good cruise done on the standing and downed timber so if you do have to go to court you have physical and professional evidence and keep that tally so you know if more is being taken out than should. I doubt you will have problems but when it comes to cedar better safe than sorry.

Wes

It sounds like you are saying that I should agree to a certain price for certain trees, get the money upfront and then monitor what they take so they don't take more than what's agreed upon?

Just trying to understand.

You just validated my exact concerns. I agree to a certain lump sum price but then the loggers come in and take a whole bunch more wood than I knew was there.

That's why I would prefer to do something where we put money into a bank account and the loggers come in and do their thing, the mill processes it up, we then count the quantity and I either give money back to the mill or the mill puts more money into the account.

I talked to a company called pacific forest management, they were very very helpful and talked with me for quite a bit but seemed to think they would dig into my margin too much paying them for their services.

Perhaps they were just too busy at that time.

 

[checkthisout]

absolutely nothing wrong with doing it yourself, its just a pain in shorts, that's why people hire loggers:msp_tongue:. Seriously it can be done, and more power to ya, but it is allot of dangerous work. there are self loaders out there I am compiling a list, but for now they are in the snohomish and skagit county areas, not that they would mind traveling, it just costs you more money. If you buy an 066/660 stihl like you said earlier it will pull a 48-54" bar but an 880/088 would pull it and then some, but good luck finding a used 088/880 (I think guys are sleeping with em and not there wifeys).

Be super careful when bucking off those windfall root balls, just cause most of em go the right way does not mean they all do, and there big enough that you can't run fast enough to get out of the way, its always quite the rush to cut em though. Good luck

Oh yeah and kudos on getting all the permits, its a pain but it keeps you out of court, usually

Got to keep it legit. I have about 70 hours behind the controls of a large excavator so I understand most of the dangers. I wouldn't be doing that end though. A friend of mine who is a professional operator and seemingly melts and becomes one with any piece of earth-moving machinery he gets into would be doing that.

 

[checkthisout]

Thanks for all the comments so far guys. Good or bad, believe me, all are helpful and don't be afraid to hurt my feelings!

The way I really want to do it is rent my own machine, have my buddy run it and hire a professional logger (independent contractor) to run the saw. I could cut the logs myself but those are famous last words right?

We'd stack the logs and then I'd call a few different mills to come out and bid on the wood.

I'd then agree to a certain price for certain marked logs and I'd have a good idea of what they are worth since there would be cuts on both ends and any rot, twisting or knots would be visible. The buyer would pay me cash and then a self-loader could come down and pick them up.

This way I would know what I have and be able to have the excavator there for the other work I need to do.

 

[northmanlogging]

while plausible that the mill would pay you on site, don't hold your breath on it, they don't like paying until that wood crosses through their scale house, even then you have to deal with the scaler with the 10" long thumb...

Keep load tickets from the self loader they should give you a ticket saying which mill its going to and such. Try to keep track of how much wood you have on each truck, that number will be higher than the scale house it always is no matter what mill you bring it to. just remember the mills control the purse strings, they set the prices, the scale the logs, the say if its a cull. If its a decent mill then they will have been around for awhile, the really shady ones tend to run out of wood after awhile.

If you can talk to the buyer at the mill find out what kind of length and diameter they LIKE,

 

[OlympicYJ]

The guys at PFM are good guys. But as they advised you they would dig into your margins too much. They can do small stuff but they do lots of engineering work for the companies and cruising and therfore they are busy but could get the job done for sure.

I'm wasn't advocating lump sum or by volume. If you sell it lump sum you agree on a volume. If there is more there than agreed on, the shake rats make out pretty good and you lose a little bit but that's the nature of the beast so it requires you to have a sharp pencil and a good cruise. If its by the bundle (cord) or mbf you have to watch exactly how much is taken out.

Finally with both you need to make sure anything you don't want cut doesn't get cut and hauled off.

If you did the work and brought the logs out yourself to a easily accessible part of your property and had them look em over that would be your safest option to theft but then you're the one having to do the work but if you are building a road and such and need the equipment there that could be an option as well. It's up to you and what you're comfortable doing.

I wouldn't however process the sticks into shake blocks. Need to know what your doing and its labor intensive. The crew could come in to your deck of logs and cut them up right there and the mess would be concentrated instead of spread all over. Then they have to cover the final handling costs and trucking.

Wes

 

[Humptulips]

I think a lot of posts in this thread are confusing this with hireing a logger and selling to a sawmill. This is dealing with shakerats and and shake/shingle mills. Not the same thing!

If it was mine I would either cut into blocks on site and sell to a mill as I hauled them in or sell the blocks by the cord to a mill I trusted and be there when they load out to scale the load. Let the mill supply the block cutters.
If you want to dig the logs out I would sell the logs but I would have trucks there to load while you had machinery on site. You would still need to cut blocks on site because there will be cedar left after you load all the logs out.

You are going to have a real problem getting a self loader and unless you plan on camping out on site you risk theft while the logs are decked waiting for bids.
Besides that I wonder if a self loader could handle some of the logs if your size description is accurate. Your guy could split them if he savys cedar and make them easier to load or he could do a lot of damage if he doesn't savy. I just see a lot of problems with the self loader idea.

Mentioning PCM means to me you must be close to Forks. I'm not familiar with people that far north but don't count out getting bids from Amanda Park/Neilton/Humptulips. They seem to haul blocks all over and a long way so you might get a better bid from someone a little farther afield.

 

[checkthisout]

I think a lot of posts in this thread are confusing this with hireing a logger and selling to a sawmill. This is dealing with shakerats and and shake/shingle mills. Not the same thing!

If it was mine I would either cut into blocks on site and sell to a mill as I hauled them in or sell the blocks by the cord to a mill I trusted and be there when they load out to scale the load. Let the mill supply the block cutters.
If you want to dig the logs out I would sell the logs but I would have trucks there to load while you had machinery on site. You would still need to cut blocks on site because there will be cedar left after you load all the logs out.

You are going to have a real problem getting a self loader and unless you plan on camping out on site you risk theft while the logs are decked waiting for bids.
Besides that I wonder if a self loader could handle some of the logs if your size description is accurate. Your guy could split them if he savys cedar and make them easier to load or he could do a lot of damage if he doesn't savy. I just see a lot of problems with the self loader idea.

Mentioning PCM means to me you must be close to Forks. I'm not familiar with people that far north but don't count out getting bids from Amanda Park/Neilton/Humptulips. They seem to haul blocks all over and a long way so you might get a better bid from someone a little farther afield.

This is very helpful, thanks.

I am not sure where half these mills get their wood. There are a number of them dotting the countryside. I love to fish over there and your average clearcut has been scoured down to nothing in regards to any salvageable wood although last year I saw some guys cutting blocks off of stumps. Upon inspection, you could see that in the past, someone else had already cut blocks off the stumps!

Yes, the wood would be going to shingle mills and they want whole logs. I am not sure what you guys mean when you say scale ramps though. The pacific forest management guy used that same term as well.

All I saw were big dumpster looking things that hold 1 cord that they stack the wood in. I figured this was how they measured it out?

I wouldn't have to use a self-loader but I'm trying to find a second option if I can't move all the wood in the time frame that I have the excavator rented.

Ah logistics. :bang:

Truth be told though, planning all this is actually fun for me.

 

[slowp]

Scaling ramps are where logs are scaled, measured, defect taken out--this is where they figure out what you are paid for. This is done on the log truck, without unloading. There are ramps alongside where the scalers walk and where they put their ladders so they can climb up on the log truck loads. They can't see every log.

Roll out scaling: The logs are unloaded, and rolled out so the scaler can see each log (we hope) and get a better measurement of the volume.

Scaler: The person who figures out the actual volume of your logs, and you will be paid based on that figure.

 

[northmanlogging]

There is a couple of self loaders that could possibly handle stuff that big. they run their hydraulics a little higher than is suggested... but if you hire them they will want some one on the ground to wrap the logs with a choker or chain cause their grapple just taint big enough

 

[checkthisout]

Scaling ramps are where logs are scaled, measured, defect taken out--this is where they figure out what you are paid for. This is done on the log truck, without unloading. There are ramps alongside where the scalers walk and where they put their ladders so they can climb up on the log truck loads. They can't see every log.

Roll out scaling: The logs are unloaded, and rolled out so the scaler can see each log (we hope) and get a better measurement of the volume.

Scaler: The person who figures out the actual volume of your logs, and you will be paid based on that figure.

And I'll follow this up with another question.

These guys work independently from the shake mills or they work for the Mills? In others words is this an unbiased third party where the logging truck would "stop on his way to the Mill (shingle processor) so to speak?

 

[checkthisout]

Scaling ramps are where logs are scaled, measured, defect taken out--this is where they figure out what you are paid for. This is done on the log truck, without unloading. There are ramps alongside where the scalers walk and where they put their ladders so they can climb up on the log truck loads. They can't see every log.

Roll out scaling: The logs are unloaded, and rolled out so the scaler can see each log (we hope) and get a better measurement of the volume.

Scaler: The person who figures out the actual volume of your logs, and you will be paid based on that figure.

Ok, so a simple google search brought up a few places in Forks that perform this service.

Wow, another card to consider.......

 

[Humptulips]

Yea, where do they get the wood? I wonder when it will end myself. Some of the ground has been salvaged 7,8 times. Virtually every block show has been went over multiple times. The quality of wood they will accept keeps going down and they pay a little more to cut blocks so shake rats can dig a little deeper. I think they are cleaning them up now enough there won't be another time.
They haul the blocks in from a long way too. There pretty much aren't any shake/shingle mills left outside the Penninsula (Excluding BC and AK of course). If you have salvage cedar and you're off the Pennisula there isn't many places to go so a lot gets hauled in.
I've seen blocks coming from Tillamook, Everett and I had a block show about 15 years ago near Bremerton and had to haul the blocks to Amanda Park.

If you are selling blocks save your money on the scalers. You can scale them yourself. The mill will to and you can haggle a little if there is a difference. If you're selling logs use a bureau scaler.

 

[checkthisout]

Yea, where do they get the wood? I wonder when it will end myself. Some of the ground has been salvaged 7,8 times. Virtually every block show has been went over multiple times. The quality of wood they will accept keeps going down and they pay a little more to cut blocks so shake rats can dig a little deeper. I think they are cleaning them up now enough there won't be another time.
They haul the blocks in from a long way too. There pretty much aren't any shake/shingle mills left outside the Penninsula (Excluding BC and AK of course). If you have salvage cedar and you're off the Pennisula there isn't many places to go so a lot gets hauled in.
I've seen blocks coming from Tillamook, Everett and I had a block show about 15 years ago near Bremerton and had to haul the blocks to Amanda Park.

If you are selling blocks save your money on the scalers. You can scale them yourself. The mill will to and you can haggle a little if there is a difference. If you're selling logs use a bureau scaler.

I called a Bureau scaler this morning, he told me they measure the bins at the mills after the wood is processed.

He basically sounds like he could be my eyes if I wasn't able to count? :msp_razz:

 

[northmanlogging]

Used to be a bunch of shake mills out Darrington way, pretty sure most of em are closed down now and yes you can thank the owls. I did hear about a guy I went to skhool with started a part time shake mill I could make some calls??? There is one of the mills in Oso that converted over to custom milling have no idea who's running it or how to get ahold of em. Other wise every one of em got shut down in the early-mid 90s.

As far as scalers haven't met one yet that could see straight or count to ten