Porting - Performance Measured?

[Stormy]

But didn't Eddie_t address this? That you can mod according to want/need re: torque, rpm, etc.? That you can have the gains where you want them for 95% of your cutting, and still enjoy improved cut times and performance? What if you're an old man with RA, need a lighter saw, and can't cut for hours on end even though you have to heat the house? Is his only option a race saw? Seems not. Or the one-armed fella I saw on YouTube who fashioned that contraption to hold the saw with his body to compensate? Same question.

And what about claims I've seen that porting will actually add to the saw's longevity? Any merit in that?

 

[wyk]

Cut times with same cutting equipment in the same wood at relatively the same atmospheric conditions is the best you're going to get from most builders. Personally, I'd argue an honest timed test is efficient enough as most guys in the market are looking for a return on their investment in terms of production. Reducing a single cut time from let's say one minute to forty seconds or better is exactly what they want to see, not necessarily some numbers on a chart. Don't get me wrong, I love that stuff too.

I would argue that unless you know exactly what conditions those cut times are done in, and you never can be certain, the information is just as useful or useless as dyno numbers. I have a 77cc saw that absolutely buries another builders 88cc saw in use, but his vids look better... If you look at many of the builders videos and threads, they often don't even mention the wood, chain, conditions, etc. They often throw up a saw chewing through pine or poplar. It looks impressive, as it should.

 

[Terry Syd]

I've never posted a video of any of my saws. I'd have to make sure my camera could do it first, but if I did, I think having a comparison saw in the video would be a benefit for some perspective.

I've got this crappy 029 that I've built with the 390 jug and a NK bar. If I did a video, I think that if I had my mate cutting with is his stock 372 with a fresh chisel chain on the same log - alternating back and forth, one cut him, one cut me - it might give some perspective on the relative performance.

It just seems to me that if what we are doing is cutting wood (in a video, one particular log), then we should have a known benchmark in the video to refer to. There are too many variables otherwise, heck, some guys make an assessment based upon the freaking noise of the saw - "sounds like it has some balls" etc.

I also like the idea of having the same chain on different saws cutting on the same log as a benchmark.

 

[treesmith]

Today we took down a corymbia/spotted gum, two climbers, one with stock 390xp 24", me with mastermind 261 18". Cutting the same wood on two separate stems the 261 cut faster and bogged less, not to mention was lighter and more nimble. The 261 probably had the better chain but not by much

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[moody]

Before



After






notice a difference?

 

[mweba]

I would argue that unless you know exactly what conditions those cut times are done in, and you never can be certain, the information is just as useful or useless as dyno numbers. I have a 77cc saw that absolutely buries another builders 88cc saw in use, but his vids look better... If you look at many of the builders videos and threads, they often don't even mention the wood, chain, conditions, etc. They often throw up a saw chewing through pine or poplar. It looks impressive, as it should.

I give up.

Peace out gentlemen.

 

[moody]

I would argue that unless you know exactly what conditions those cut times are done in, and you never can be certain, the information is just as useful or useless as dyno numbers. I have a 77cc saw that absolutely buries another builders 88cc saw in use, but his vids look better... If you look at many of the builders videos and threads, they often don't even mention the wood, chain, conditions, etc. They often throw up a saw chewing through pine or poplar. It looks impressive, as it should.

Dyno numbers are pretty useless for two reasons.

1. Just because a saw makes more peak power doesn't mean it's faster. The power band could be too peaky for work. I've not seen a dyno for saws actually measure this accurately.

2. Saws were made to cut wood. All of my videos are done in hardwoods. But that's because I have nothing else but hardwoods. I often times use out of the box chain because that's what people are likely to use when Working.

The only true constant is in cut times.

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[redbull660]

I got about 20% just by doing a DP muffler. I still think it would be cool to have one ported and max things out. But a lot can be done just by opening up the air flow in and out. Another big one is the chain. Sharp good chain is half the battle. Have heard/seen a lot on square ground being the fastest chain. But haven't gotten around to buying any YET.

I also think you may get more or less doing a DP muffler on another saw?

But in any case if your here asking about it...then spending 200-300 on a port job isn't against your better judgement.

note: I personally think one should break a saw in before they do any mods to it. 10-15 tanks. But that's just me.

I used same saw, same bar, same new chain, same log, all on the same day for the test in this vid.

note: saw is lean with dp. tuned it to 20" bar before I put 36 on...losing light fast so I just went with it.

 

[chadihman]

Before



After







notice a difference?

I notice two different atmospheres, two different bars and possibly two different chains. I also noticed you were constantly bucking the saw. I will say the second video looked like a stronger saw.
I'm not trying to be an azz but if you want to compare two saws accurately you need to keep the same log, bar, chain, and just let the saw do the work because pulling on the saw is way to variable.
Log testing is fun and can be very accurate. So is a dyno. I'm not saying everyone needs a dyno or that cut times are bad but if your going to test saws keep as many variables out as possible.

 

[Moparmyway]

In fact I strive for a balance between subjective and objective,.

Then this should clear it up a bit. I believe it was Tree Monkey who first stated it, not word for word, but the meaning is the same; and my "real world use" matches !!

1. Take 1 gallon of mixed fuel and go cutting with a stock saw, tuned properly, see how many rounds you put on the pile and how long you cut from start to finish
2. Take that same saw, port and tune it properly, take another gallon of mixed fuel and go cutting for a day. See how many rounds you now put on the pile and how long it took you

RESULT:
The ported saw has more wood in less time - count rounds if you need to .............


1. Fill the tank on a stock saw after tuning it and go cut rounds
2 Fill the tank on the same saw after its ported, tune it, and go cut rounds

RESULT:
The ported saw runs out of fuel sooner, but WAY more rounds are cut. Count them and see the difference


1. Go cut enough wood to fill the truck with a stock, tuned saw .... see how much fuel was used and how long it took you
2. Port that saw, tune it and cut wood to fill the truck. See how much fuel was used and how long it took you

RESULT:
The ported saw used less fuel in less time to do the same work

 

[treesmith]

I would argue that unless you know exactly what conditions those cut times are done in, and you never can be certain, the information is just as useful or useless as dyno numbers. I have a 77cc saw that absolutely buries another builders 88cc saw in use, but his vids look better... If you look at many of the builders videos and threads, they often don't even mention the wood, chain, conditions, etc. They often throw up a saw chewing through pine or poplar. It looks impressive, as it should.

I use my mastermind saws in hard Aussie gum, I forget how good they are until I use somebody else's saw then it all comes back. I would never own a stock saw by choice ever again, well, except my ms200t and 288xp

 

[Chris-PA]

I don't see why it should be an either/or battle. A dyno gives you more than just peak hp/torque, it can give you a plot of each vs. rpm which will show if the engine is peaky or not. It is also more repeatable. You can be sure the people who design these engines run endless dyno tests looking at hp/torque curves as well as emissions and fuel use.

But most will not have access to a dyno, and a simple dyno will not give you all the information. Since it is a steady-state test it will not give you dynamic information, such as throttle response for example - although I'm sure a more sophisticated one could look at rate of acceleration vs. a fixed load. You can certainly make a decent judgment on the power output and torque curve by working with the saw over an extended period. You won't have a number to put on it, but does that matter?

 

[Chris-PA]

Then this should clear it up a bit. I believe it was Tree Monkey who first stated it, not word for word, but the meaning is the same; and my "real world use" matches !!

1. Take 1 gallon of mixed fuel and go cutting with a stock saw, tuned properly, see how many rounds you put on the pile and how long you cut from start to finish
2. Take that same saw, port and tune it properly, take another gallon of mixed fuel and go cutting for a day. See how many rounds you now put on the pile and how long it took you

RESULT:
The ported saw has more wood in less time - count rounds if you need to .............


1. Fill the tank on a stock saw after tuning it and go cut rounds
2 Fill the tank on the same saw after its ported, tune it, and go cut rounds

RESULT:
The ported saw runs out of fuel sooner, but WAY more rounds are cut. Count them and see the difference


1. Go cut enough wood to fill the truck with a stock, tuned saw .... see how much fuel was used and how long it took you
2. Port that saw, tune it and cut wood to fill the truck. See how much fuel was used and how long it took you

RESULT:
The ported saw used less fuel in less time to do the same work

Keeping in mind that almost all of my saws are ported, I do think you have some assumptions built into that comment - primarily that all ported saws jobs produce more power without reducing efficiency. If you increase power without reducing efficiency, then you just have more power and will cut X% faster while using proportionately more fuel. But if you increase power while making it a fuel swilling pig then you will cut faster but use a lot more fuel. Both of these are possible to do with a grinder.

"Porting" is not a well defined thing, and neither are people's expectations for what it should achieve. Some porting jobs are designed to make high rpm power, and some are to make low end torque. Some will be more effective than others. Some people don't care at all how much fuel they use, so how much wood gets cut per hour is the only measure. Some folks are running a business and the fuel cost is important.

For some of us, the time spent with the saw in the wood is a small fraction of the job, and so at most a ported saw can provide a few percent reduction of a few percent of the time - so if sawing is 20% of the job and I reduce the cutting time by 20%, then I have made a total improvement of 4%. Obviously I made those numbers up and different people doing different jobs may have very different numbers, but still a 20% improvement in saw power will not put 20% more wood on the truck.

 

[chadihman]

Dyno numbers are pretty useless for two reasons.

1. Just because a saw makes more peak power doesn't mean it's faster. The power band could be too peaky for work. I've not seen a dyno for saws actually measure this accurately.

2. Saws were made to cut wood. All of my videos are done in hardwoods. But that's because I have nothing else but hardwoods. I often times use out of the box chain because that's what people are likely to use when Working.

The only true constant is in cut times.

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I hope all your tests aren't like the videos you posted. Two good reasons not to use your way if testing.
1- suc#s
2- it really suc#s

A dyno is useless only to the guy that doesn't know how to read it.
Like I said I'm not saying cut times are bad. There very accurate if done properly. I'm not bashing cut time testing.

 

[moody]

I notice two different atmospheres, two different bars and possibly two different chains. I also noticed you were constantly bucking the saw. I will say the second video looked like a stronger saw.
I'm not trying to be an azz but if you want to compare two saws accurately you need to keep the same log, bar, chain, and just let the saw do the work because pulling on the saw is way to variable.
Log testing is fun and can be very accurate. So is a dyno. I'm not saying everyone needs a dyno or that cut times are bad but if your going to test saws keep as many variables out as possible.

That's not me. That was sarcasm. And to be honest the temperature and humidity were very similar. The saw in the video is miles ahead of stock. You don't need anything but a log to see that. I think it's admirable that you are trying to get a consistent dyno. But loggers around here could care less about a sheet of numbers.

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[jdhacker]

Dyno is just like a saw or any other tool, the more you know about it, the more you use and understand it, the more you can do with it.

 

[banana boat]

In any other motorsport this would almost be a laughable way of testing performance gains.

Oh yea in motorsports racing nobody judges performance based on lap times

 

[chadihman]

A dyno is used for testing gains one mod at a time. A bunch of tiny gains tested one at a time in the dyno. Then put it in the wood. How are you going to see a very small gain in cut times? I bet a logger would love to see all those tiny gains or #'s that make the final # or cut time. The dyno also shows the small mods that hurt its performance. A race car is dyno'd before it hits the track or most times before the engine gets bolted in.
I've done both cut times and dyno testing. How many dyno runs have you made with a saw moody?

 

[moody]

A dyno is used for testing gains one mod at a time. A bunch of tiny gains tested one at a time in the dyno. Then put it in the wood. How are you going to see a very small gain in cut times? I bet a logger would love to see all those tiny gains or #'s that make the final # or cut time. The dyno also shows the small mods that hurt its performance. A race car is dyno'd before it hits the track or most times before the engine gets bolted in.
I've done both cut times and dyno testing. How many dyno runs have you made with a saw moody?

Well none. For very good reason. It's not practical as these aren't race car's. These are being used to earn a pay check. The guys I deal with could give a **** less about the time spent on the dyno they want their saws done. They care about the end result not the in between.

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[troylee]

If the sound and feel of a ported & MM'd saw isn't worth a couple hundred dollars to you, maybe you should buy your wood!