Running PEX through garage for OWB, options?

[goosegunner]

I have a few questions about running water lines to an OWB. I bought a used taylor and I want to place it near my garage for the winter and then do something more permanent next summer.

The taylor has the Domestic water coil so I would need at least 4 lines going out to OWB

The piping inside my garage would not change and it would lead to basement.

My garage L's off of my house. The best way to run my pipe would be to go from OWB to garage, then along back wall of garage for 30' and into the basement.

Questions;

Would it work to go up to garage ceiling and run in an insulated soffit?

I would have to go up 10' and then back down 10' before going into the basement.

Can I just use wirsbo or pex in garage area and insulate myself with Styrofoam and box in with wood?

The taylor has the Domestic water coil so I would need at least 4 lines going out to OWB Is it better to just use 2 lines and have a plate or sidearm for DHW?

gg

 

[Beagledoc]

I have a Taylor as well. The more you can insulate the pipes the more pleased you will be. I insulated my pipes with foam insulation then pulled the pipes through black corrugated pipe. I would at least recommend wrapping the pipes in insulation to pevent as much heat loss as possible. I use the hot water coil inside the Taylor and this water then feeds into my regular hot water heater in the house so that the water is "preheated" before it goes into the house hot water heater.

I have heard good and bad about the heat exchangers. You will need to figure out if you are going to have a second water pump and run a second water circuit to the heat exchanger for the hot water. I don't know much about the heat exchangers.

We love our Taylor T-450!

 

[goosegunner]

I was under the impression that with the Taylor DHW exchanger your well pump circulates through the exchanger before coming back to the water heater. (cold supply and hot return)

That is why I would need 4 lines going to the Taylor (to keep potable water separate from the OWB lines.

gg

 

[magnumhntr]

I ran my pex lines along the back wall of my garage, boxed it in, and insulated them with pipe insulation on the pex with fiberglass around it all. I have 65 ft of underground and another 40 ft along the garage wall with 5 degree loss at the hot water heater. It worked for me

 

[Windwalker7]

I have a Shaver. It also has a coil inside the water jacket for heating DHW.

Here is a link to a similar question about hooking it up.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=111586

It might help you out.


I use the coil in my shaver. I like it!

 

[goosegunner]

What about cross contamination in your potable water with the copper coil?

Are plate exchangers safer?

After thinking about it some it seems Like it might be best to not use the copper coil but use a plate exchanger. It would also save me one set of lines.

gg

 

[rx7145]

I put my lines in a "box" I made out of foam board. (like what is used on the out side of houses under the siding). The I filled the box with great stuff, Works good.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Temporary setup feeding my shop: 2-1" PEX lines, each with Armaflex 1/2" insulation, inside of 6" ADS pipe, shot foam into the ADS....my line is exposed for about 2' coming out of the ground, thru the wall...no freezeups so far. Check the mfr. instructions about the 10' vertical rise on your lines, I would put check valves in so the water won't run back to the boiler, seeking it's own level.

 

[Slick]

I did similiar last year with a CB boiler, using a side arm so only a pair of 1" lines. I had to go through my metal building though so it went like this... in the shop, up about 15'...across and I beam 40 ft then back down 15 feet, out the shop then underground 100feet to the house...yeah it was fun No problems so far, I thought I would need a monster pump because of the raise but Taco tech support assured me I didn't even have to figure in that 15ft raise into the head pressure equation to select a pump because it is also falling 15 feet so it equals out...they then told me I needed a monster pump because of the distance, elbows etc It works fine though.
I used 1/2" pipe insulation on each line inside my shop, figured it some leaked out no big deal I heat the shop with the second output of my CB anyway...someday I'll add more insulation but for now it's fine, figure I'll bend 1" foam ductboard around it, to the house I used Thermopex underground.

 

[goosegunner]

I did similiar last year with a CB boiler, using a side arm so only a pair of 1" lines. I had to go through my metal building though so it went like this... in the shop, up about 15'...across and I beam 40 ft then back down 15 feet, out the shop then underground 100feet to the house...yeah it was fun No problems so far, I thought I would need a monster pump because of the raise but Taco tech support assured me I didn't even have to figure in that 15ft raise into the head pressure equation to select a pump because it is also falling 15 feet so it equals out...they then told me I needed a monster pump because of the distance, elbows etc It works fine though.
I used 1/2" pipe insulation on each line inside my shop, figured it some leaked out no big deal I heat the shop with the second output of my CB anyway...someday I'll add more insulation but for now it's fine, figure I'll bend 1" foam ductboard around it, to the house I used Thermopex underground.

Did you install check valves?

Also, you said bigger pump because of 90's. Were they used at the vertical transitions or did you sweep the pex?

gg

 

[Slick]

No check valves on the raise and fall...the CB does have one right at the boiler though I believe and yeah it would be needed, I'm a good 12 feet over the boiler up in the shops rafters would drain out when the pump was off.
I swept the pex everywhere I could...I'm anal with that stuff after setting up a few dust collection systems I don't use a 90 elbow on anything that flows unless it's a last resort but there where some 90's and 45's at the heat exchangers etc actually probably not to many 90's but some 45's for sure. I laid out the whole system and added all that stuff up, the Taco equation takes into account the size pipe, type, elbows, valves etc to figure out head, flow etc for each pump. I think it was mainly the distance that bumped me up in pumps, that friction really adds up if you look at the equation. I ended up with the largest they have in the circulator series that everyone uses....I forget, think it's an 011? Which didn't make sense to me as they have an 013 but it didn't flow as much as the 011 if I remember correctly.

 

[goosegunner]

Thanks for the feed back!

Can anyone tell me what the sweep distance would be for 1" wirsbo?

Not sure if I want to go up yet or not. I can go along the back wall but it would be easier to hide at the ceiling level in a soffit.


gg

 

[goosegunner]

I have decided against using the hot water coil in the Taylor. Cross contamination scares me off of that, the addition of 2 more lines is also a factor.


So I am thinking:

2 1" lines of wirsbo through the garage to a manifold in the basement.

Air exchanger in the forced air furnace.

Water heater set up with an aqua-stat and pump going to a Plate exchanger for hot water.

Eventually heat the insulated garage.

gg

 

[Slick]

I used a generic red 1" pex from ebay....sweep distance would be totally different depending on the temperature Seriously...this stuff is like trying to uncoil steel when it's cold...stuff kept slapping me in the face, pushing me all over on the ladder...it sucked...try running a pair of steel coiled snakes along an Ibeam in december 15' feet up on an extension ladder! It's a whole lot easier to work with when it's warm...to do it again I would try real hard to do it in august!!

 

[mtfallsmikey]

I have decided against using the hot water coil in the Taylor. Cross contamination scares me off of that, the addition of 2 more lines is also a factor.


So I am thinking:

2 1" lines of wirsbo through the garage to a manifold in the basement.

Air exchanger in the forced air furnace.

Water heater set up with an aqua-stat and pump going to a Plate exchanger for hot water.

Eventually heat the insulated garage.


gg

I never understood the philosophy of a domestic water coil inside of a OWB...and separate piping. Me thinks the temp. losses would be great, especially on a 100' or so run...a HX in the house is way more effiecient.

 

[1harlowr]

I have a Hardy with the DHW coil in the furnace. There's no more heat loss in the 100' run than there is in a 100' to the heating HX. Plus you don't have the cost of a water to water HX. Just have the cost of the seperate line for the DHW. Also the water going to the water to air HX is hotter because it didn't have to heat DHW first.
Either way works and neither is really that much better/worse than the other.

 

[Slick]

I never understood the philosophy of a domestic water coil inside of a OWB...and separate piping. Me thinks the temp. losses would be great, especially on a 100' or so run...a HX in the house is way more effiecient.

Agreed..by the time you run two more DHW lines and insulate them, why not just put the HX in the house? Seems like a lot of work to me to run four lines into the house...my run was almost 200 feet, no way I was running two more lines

 

[trshmn]

I have a Hardy with the DHW coil in the furnace. There's no more heat loss in the 100' run than there is in a 100' to the heating HX. Plus you don't have the cost of a water to water HX. Just have the cost of the seperate line for the DHW. Also the water going to the water to air HX is hotter because it didn't have to heat DHW first.
Either way works and neither is really that much better/worse than the other.

My friends hardy is set up the same, but he has to leave his electric water heater turned on because the hardy only helps heat the water, my sidearm hx heats 100% of DHW as my water heater breaker is shut off, and I think it's alot cheaper than buying (for me) 200' of insulated pex (150' to house then 50' to wh)

 

[Windwalker7]

I have my Shaver heating the DHW 100% without a side arm.


The problem is that many people run the DHW cold water feed line out to the coil in the water jacket and then back in, to the hot water tank. This will only warm the water because it only circulates through the coil once.

You need to have it continously circulate as Shaver instructs. Using tee fittings on the drain valve and pressure valve. Add a pump and wire it to a thermostat on the hot water tank. Water will circulate and circulate and circulate until it reaches your desired temperature.

I ran my extra DHW lines inside the underground conduit, right along sdie of my lines for the HX in plenum.

Whether we use a side arm or a built in coil, they all do the same thing. I doubt either is better than the other. As long as the water is hot and not heated with oil or propane, we all win.

 

[trshmn]

Yea windwalker, shavers will heat 100% of DHW, I ran mine for a 1 1/2 yr. like that no problem, but decided to use those lines and pump for the garage, and go with the side arm, more cost effective than burying 2 more lines, but the hardy's don't use a pump for the DHW, they send cold water out to be pre heated, the only time it circulates is on demand.