I did make some mods to butterfly today. It didn't come with any saw or handsaw snaps. I was able to use some nice 1 inch webbing and sew in stainless snaps. I used a conventional snap for my chainsaw and a less conventional snap for the hansaw. I am hopeing this will keep the handsaw scabbard from comeing off in compettion. Take a look.
Saddle Set UP
- Thread starter Froggy
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artic_arborist
New Member
pro austria "hiawatha" harness
does any of yours use pro austria harnesses?
i have those and think these are ???? goood
i dont need modifiet these. balanse is really good and leg straps ar more comfortable than butterflys.
does any of yours use pro austria harnesses?
i have those and think these are ???? goood
i dont need modifiet these. balanse is really good and leg straps ar more comfortable than butterflys.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Much confusion here.
ANSI is a standard. No gear is certified by ANSI. It's more correct to say that gear meets OSHA or ANSI standards.
I attended the Z133 meeting last Wednesday. There is a lot of confusion about the status of saddle standards in the US right now. Don't quote me yet, but I think that I understand that since the B'fly meets EN standards that it is OK to use in the US.
I'm going to get a clarification on this issue before the TCC season gets too far along. Look for the clarification here or on T*ee B*zz.
Most manufacturers run extensive tests on the gear that they produce. The catch is that climbers will find applications for some gear that the manufacturer didn't design for. Then, in the case of failure, the climbers or thier heirs, expect the manufacturer to be liable. Or, climbers get told that they can't use a system because it doesn't meet the exact design parameters of the manufacturer. This puts everyone in an awkward position.
Tom
Tom
ANSI is a standard. No gear is certified by ANSI. It's more correct to say that gear meets OSHA or ANSI standards.
I attended the Z133 meeting last Wednesday. There is a lot of confusion about the status of saddle standards in the US right now. Don't quote me yet, but I think that I understand that since the B'fly meets EN standards that it is OK to use in the US.
I'm going to get a clarification on this issue before the TCC season gets too far along. Look for the clarification here or on T*ee B*zz.
Most manufacturers run extensive tests on the gear that they produce. The catch is that climbers will find applications for some gear that the manufacturer didn't design for. Then, in the case of failure, the climbers or thier heirs, expect the manufacturer to be liable. Or, climbers get told that they can't use a system because it doesn't meet the exact design parameters of the manufacturer. This puts everyone in an awkward position.
Tom
Tom
FBerkel
ArboristSite Operative
Mahk,
One dangerous technique frequently used in TCC's is footlocking (with prussik) too far up a doubled line over a wide limb. I've witnessed many guys doing it , and did it myself a few years back, better judgement overpowered by competetiveness. Good judges probably catch this and warn the climber, but bad things can happen pretty quickly.
One dangerous technique frequently used in TCC's is footlocking (with prussik) too far up a doubled line over a wide limb. I've witnessed many guys doing it , and did it myself a few years back, better judgement overpowered by competetiveness. Good judges probably catch this and warn the climber, but bad things can happen pretty quickly.
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
I use a Petzl Shunt clipped to my center d-ring for foot locking. The Shunt eliminates the problem of rope spread when you reach the limb. At 4945.6 lbs if falls just short of the 5,000 lb minimum but will slip way before reaching its breaking point like the Petzl Micrograb or Footlocker. The Shunt is small and takes up very little space on my saddle. It is right there if I need to use the other end of my climbing line for a second TIP. The Shunts works like a self tending friction hitch and is very fast to install and remove.
treeman82
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tom, I had talked with Dennis Ryan and Ken Palmer a week or two ago about the Butterfly, they said that it doesn't meet any standards and should not be used for tree climbing. I don't remember the exact conversation, but I believe Ken said that he will not allow the Butterfly in the competitions 
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
But then Arbormaster has their own lable saddle line so there is some conflict of interest there.
Ryan is known to have...shall we say some very strong opinions about new gear. I've never realy met the guy so I cannot realy say anything either way there.
Ryan is known to have...shall we say some very strong opinions about new gear. I've never realy met the guy so I cannot realy say anything either way there.
In my opinion Ken Palmer should be voted out, asked to resign. This guy cleary has his own intrests in mind. It's all about new things. Not promoting arbormaster. I heard Chisholm never had a chance this at the internationals this past year because it would put him up there with Palmer being a three time champion and Ken wouldn't allow that. The guy really has the wrong attitude.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Mark got some flack about the Fly Rope, Howard from NER jumped through some hoops to get the paper work to those people a second time.
But Mark did hurt himself, so was not at his peak for the competition.
But Mark did hurt himself, so was not at his peak for the competition.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
82 [by the way, what is your name? After all this time posting, I can't remember ever seeing your real name, but Mike Maas is the champion of the Names Committee ]
Well now, you're confronted with a dilemma here. Which opinion do you believe, if either. The three weeks before the Z133 meeting I was in the UK spending time with a friend in the industry. We spent time going over the applicable saddle standards and certifications. From those discussions AND what was said at the Z133 meeting by Jim Pennefeather [ from Buckingham] the Butterfly meets the US standards as they are now in place.
The issue of using the B'fly and other non-American made saddles in competition should be settled long before the ITCC. The decision should be made by unbiased participants. Also, the applicable manufacturing and certifying standards need to be investigated. If those standards haven't changed since last year, how can they change the rules? The Butterfly was OK last year, why shouldn't it be OK this year?
Here's another issue that I found while reading the Z for the umpteenth time. Look at 9.2.2: Scabbards or sheaths used to carry handsaws when not in use, shall be hooked to the arborist saddle. Etc... That makes all of us leg scabbard users Outlaws. Or maybe that only applies to American climbers
]Well now, you're confronted with a dilemma here. Which opinion do you believe, if either. The three weeks before the Z133 meeting I was in the UK spending time with a friend in the industry. We spent time going over the applicable saddle standards and certifications. From those discussions AND what was said at the Z133 meeting by Jim Pennefeather [ from Buckingham] the Butterfly meets the US standards as they are now in place.
The issue of using the B'fly and other non-American made saddles in competition should be settled long before the ITCC. The decision should be made by unbiased participants. Also, the applicable manufacturing and certifying standards need to be investigated. If those standards haven't changed since last year, how can they change the rules? The Butterfly was OK last year, why shouldn't it be OK this year?
Here's another issue that I found while reading the Z for the umpteenth time. Look at 9.2.2: Scabbards or sheaths used to carry handsaws when not in use, shall be hooked to the arborist saddle. Etc... That makes all of us leg scabbard users Outlaws. Or maybe that only applies to American climbers
I guess he would get some flack using anything but Samson. I hear at our comp in the penn del chapter we can't use the fly but for the throw ball to pull a line through. I hung a rope once for Rip, some New Englan H V and he pulled out pulled through some blue streak. Said he wasn't allowed to climb on it. I wouldn't care what I got paid from a sponsor. I'm no ones ????? and would climb on what I ever I wanted. I just thinks its too political and crazy. Its about having fun and staying safe.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Big John,
There is ABSOLUTELY!!! no reason that Fly can't be used as a climbing line. Any tech judge who says otherwise needs to get educated. Look at the NE website or read the Sherrill catalog. What is their justification for not allowing the Fly?
I can understand Rip's position though. Would you allow any of your employees to wear one of your competitor's T-shirts? I sure wouldn't And, I would have to question my employees integrity if they were working on one of my jobs and wore another shirt. If it was on thier own time I would still question it but with a little less scrutiny though.
Tom
There is ABSOLUTELY!!! no reason that Fly can't be used as a climbing line. Any tech judge who says otherwise needs to get educated. Look at the NE website or read the Sherrill catalog. What is their justification for not allowing the Fly?
I can understand Rip's position though. Would you allow any of your employees to wear one of your competitor's T-shirts? I sure wouldn't
And, I would have to question my employees integrity if they were working on one of my jobs and wore another shirt. If it was on thier own time I would still question it but with a little less scrutiny though. Tom
treeman82
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tom- I just sent you an e-mail, but my name is Matt. It's alright... I understand, I'm sure I will have the same problems you are having with remembering names when I get to be your age
Ken had said when I met him that the Butterfly does not meet US or European standards. The only thing it does have is that EN stamp, and it does meet one standard for 1 type of harness... but I don't remember what that was. He said that he would not allow it in international competitions. But that is just what I remember him saying to myself and to Dennis. As we all know... my memory isn't always 100% when it comes to what I have been told
Ken had said when I met him that the Butterfly does not meet US or European standards. The only thing it does have is that EN stamp, and it does meet one standard for 1 type of harness... but I don't remember what that was. He said that he would not allow it in international competitions. But that is just what I remember him saying to myself and to Dennis. As we all know... my memory isn't always 100% when it comes to what I have been told
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
In order to move this discussion along, I'm going to quote a reliable source on this issue. I apologize for keeping my source anonymous but it would take too long to get permission to use his name. Suffice it to say, he has MAJOR credibility in the profession.
This is what he wrote about the B'fly:
I had lunch with Rod Paul (Bashlin) yesterday. Because there is no ANSI
A10.14 there are currently no standards for tree saddles.
How can a saddle be barred from competition if there are no standards for their manufacture?
Someone brought up at the Z133 meeting the fact that a climber could tie into a bowline on a bite or a three loop bowline and climb. Also, tieing a Swami seat out of webbing would work too. If so, again, how can any saddle be barred?
Tom
This is what he wrote about the B'fly:
I had lunch with Rod Paul (Bashlin) yesterday. Because there is no ANSI
A10.14 there are currently no standards for tree saddles.
How can a saddle be barred from competition if there are no standards for their manufacture?
Someone brought up at the Z133 meeting the fact that a climber could tie into a bowline on a bite or a three loop bowline and climb. Also, tieing a Swami seat out of webbing would work too. If so, again, how can any saddle be barred?
Tom
Burnham
ArboristSite Operative
I have done a couple of searches here and at BB, hoping to avoid asking a dumb question, to no avail. So here goes...I thought OSHA and/or ANSI standard for climbing lines was 5400 lbs. AND 1/2 inch diameter. The Fly rope is a smaller line...and the only reference to this discrepency in my understanding of the standards that my searches and reading LOTS of posts turned up was one reference to the effect that "since 1/2 inch is no longer required, this line is acceptable". Please help me out with what is what on this. Thanks.
Tim Walsh
ArboristSite Member
ANSI Z133.1 -2000
3.5 arborist climbing line.
Arborist climbing lines shall have a minimum diameter of 1/2-inch (12.5 mm) and be constructed of a synthetic fiber, with a minimum nominal breaking strength of 5,400 pounds (24 kn) when new. Maximum working elongation shall not exceed 7 percent at a load of 540 pounds (2.4kn). Arborist climbing lines shall be identified by the manufacturer as suitable for tree climbing.
EXCEPTION: In arboricultural operations not subject to regulations that supersede Z133.1, a line of less than 1/2 inch diameter (12.5 mm) may be used, provided the employer can demonstrate it does not create a safety hazard for the arborist and they have been instructed in its use. The strength and elongation ratings of the line selected meet or exceed that of 1/2-inch arborist climbing line.
3.5 arborist climbing line.
Arborist climbing lines shall have a minimum diameter of 1/2-inch (12.5 mm) and be constructed of a synthetic fiber, with a minimum nominal breaking strength of 5,400 pounds (24 kn) when new. Maximum working elongation shall not exceed 7 percent at a load of 540 pounds (2.4kn). Arborist climbing lines shall be identified by the manufacturer as suitable for tree climbing.
EXCEPTION: In arboricultural operations not subject to regulations that supersede Z133.1, a line of less than 1/2 inch diameter (12.5 mm) may be used, provided the employer can demonstrate it does not create a safety hazard for the arborist and they have been instructed in its use. The strength and elongation ratings of the line selected meet or exceed that of 1/2-inch arborist climbing line.
