Someone level with me..... Please!

[RandyMac]

In the US alcohol proof is twice the percentage (ABV)

Right you are old son:msp_biggrin:

From the BATF

"In the United States, alcohol content is measured in terms of the percentage of alcohol by volume, (ABV). The Code of Federal Regulations (27 CFR [4-1-03 Edition] §5.37 Alcohol content) requires that liquor labels must state the percentage of alcohol by volume. The regulation permits, but does not require, a statement of the proof provided that it is printed close to the ABV number.[3] Alcoholic proof is twice the percentage of alcohol by volume when measured at a temperature of 60°F (15.5°C). Consequently, 100-proof whiskey contains 50% alcohol by volume; 86-proof whiskey contains 43% alcohol.[4] The terminology used in the United States is “n proof,” where n is a number — not “n degrees proof.” The term “degrees proof” is not used."

Jibberjabber Govspeak.

 

[StihlKiwi]

Right you are old son:msp_biggrin:

From the BATF

"In the United States, alcohol content is measured in terms of the percentage of alcohol by volume, (ABV). The Code of Federal Regulations (27 CFR [4-1-03 Edition] §5.37 Alcohol content) requires that liquor labels must state the percentage of alcohol by volume. The regulation permits, but does not require, a statement of the proof provided that it is printed close to the ABV number.[3] Alcoholic proof is twice the percentage of alcohol by volume when measured at a temperature of 60°F (15.5°C). Consequently, 100-proof whiskey contains 50% alcohol by volume; 86-proof whiskey contains 43% alcohol.[4] The terminology used in the United States is “n proof,” where n is a number — not “n degrees proof.” The term “degrees proof” is not used."

Jibberjabber Govspeak.

The bold bits are all they needed, the rest is some desk jockey justifying his job.

 

[Whitespider]

190 proof is 95% alcohol. Think about it.

That is correct... my post contained a typo; the result of typing too fast, too late at night, without proofreading.
Everclear is 190 Proof... 95% Ethanol and 5% water (as bottled and called “pure” grain alcohol).
95.6% Ethanol/4.4% water is the absolute "purest" Ethanol that can be produce through distillation processes (requires "fractional" distillation)...

 

[VikingDrive]

You mixed your fuel like a scientist.

Multiple saws are blowing. Scored Piston? When they tested your mix, I wonder what they did to check whether it was adulterated. If you didn't buy contaminated fuel I wonder if sand got in the container. Some tree hugger could catch you with your pants down and pour some grape soda in it. I liked it better when they was chaining themself to the tree.

 

[Chris-PA]

Wrong again… Ethanol saturated with water will readily burn, and the water is emitted as steam. There ain’t any such thing as 100% free (or pure) Ethanol outside of a lab… even “pure” grain alcohol (Ethanol, or commonly called Everclear) is at best 90% Ethanol and 10% water (190 Proof) until the lid is opened and it begins to saturate with water from the surrounding atmosphere. Leave a glass of Everclear sitting open to atmosphere overnight and it will be saturated with water in the morning… and putting a match to it will still cause it to burn. Ethanol pulls water from atmosphere and saturates, but it will still burn. Temperature is what determines the saturation point, or percentage of water the Ethanol will hold in solution. When I say, or said, free Ethanol I was talking about water saturated Ethanol “free” from solution with gasoline (any and all Ethanol open to atmosphere is “saturated” with water within hours, that’s just the nature of it). If temperature increases the saturation point increases, if temperature decreases so does the saturation point and the excess water drops out of solution with the Ethanol. When Ethanol becomes saturated it can no longer remain in solution with gasoline… that’s also the nature of it. Shaking it all up will mix it, and it may remain in “suspension” for a while, but is not put back into “solution” unless water (relative to temperature) is removed.

OK, an ethanol/water solution will burn. But to burn in your saw it must go through the carb and be vaporized in a venturi/jet designed for gasoline. It's going to do this without getting any free water in there, and your not going to notice it's barely running or running like crap? That's the part I'm not buying.

I think if ethanol scored a chainsaw cylinder it's usually going to be because someone ignored the signs. I mean, you're holding it in your hands, how do you not notice?

 

[sachsmo]

OK, and ethanol/water solution will burn. But to burn in your saw it must go through the carb and be vaporized in a venturi/jet designed for gasoline. It's going to do this without getting any free water in there, and your not going to notice it's barely running or running like crap? That's the part I'm not buying.

I think if ethanol scored a chainsaw cylinder it's usually going to be because someone ignored the signs. I mean, you're holding it in your hands, how do you not notice?

Like the sign says,

"You can't fix stupid"

"Some people can wreck an anvil in a sandbox"



Some of the picking on the 5100 gets old.

It's a very good saw indeed.

 

[zogger]

I have at least a 30 mile trip if I want ethanol free gas. We are in the country but close enough to Atanta that we get some of their stupid regs :-(

Just make it worth your while and fill a drum, add the appropriate fuel stabilizer and make sure you store it in the shadiest coolest spot you have. I live real close to a non ethanol station, but if I didn't I would make the trip and get at least like 25 gallons or so.

 

[Whitespider]

You’re still missing it… or confusing a solution of Ethanol/water with a mixture of Ethanol/water. As Ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere it doesn’t even increase in volume… water molecules are held between the widely spaced Ethanol molecules, it just gains weight. As the Ethanol/water solution is pulled into the warm saw, and the ethanol is warmed, the saturation point increases… so the water doesn’t separate from if, and is just thrown out the exhaust as steam. Get it? The volume of Ethanol entering the combustion chamber does not change as it becomes saturated. The real danger comes from the straight shot of Ethanol hitting the combustion chamber during phase separation… or the high percentage of Ethanol to gas... depending.

 

[Chris-PA]

You’re still missing it… or confusing a solution of Ethanol/water with a mixture of Ethanol/water. As Ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere it doesn’t even increase in volume… water molecules are held between the widely spaced Ethanol molecules, it just gains weight. As the Ethanol/water solution is pulled into the warm saw, and the ethanol is warmed, the saturation point increases… so the water doesn’t separate from if, and is just thrown out the exhaust as steam. Get it? The volume of Ethanol entering the combustion chamber does not change as it becomes saturated. The real danger comes from the straight shot of Ethanol hitting the combustion chamber during phase separation… or the high percentage of Ethanol to gas... depending.

Maybe we're just talking past each other - how does a phase separated ethanol/water mixture get into the cylinder? It's not squirted in there, it has to get vaporized in the carb which was no designed for that liquid. There is no way this happens while it's running well, you have to notice it.

I've been there - I noticed it, I got pissed and I just kept pushing it, forcing it to run. I got a scored piston for my troubles.

Note that I don't at all think that is what happened to this Dolmar, I think this was just bad tuning.

 

[mweba]

Hi Ron!

 

[tommyus4]

Whitespider:

Having taken 12 credits in Chemistry in college, I get what you're saying but I think you might be missing the point of the whole topic. OIL. Maybe I missed a post where this was addressed, so sorry in advance if that is the case. Or maybe you're just doing an Inorganic 1 lecture and the OP's point is long gone. Don't know. Don't care, actually. Just trying to preserve my saws and figure this out.

As per a 2 cycle:

The actual MIX of oil or lack thereof in the ethanol/water solution coupled with the 'as lean as it gets' condition when the ethanol/water goes through, means the saw CAN go kaboom.

I've had the suspected water in my car's tank. We all have. Shake, rattle shut down or didn't start. Don't recall. THE OIL is still doing it's job if it happens to run. I'm sure other bad things happen but a piston won't pop out.

In a 2 cycle, there will be NO oil lubricating the engine and I would imagine it is also shake, rattle and shut down but with potentially a lot more damage. The OIL is NOT doing it's job. It got separated and decided to hang with the gasoline when the Ethanol decided to run off with the water.

On another note, I did look up the Ethanol/Water boiling points because I was pretty sure one of them HAD to burn off at a different temp. Water does boil at a much higher temp than Ethanol. So Ethanol is released BEFORE the Water when things get hot. That is a chemistry lecture and it really does not matter. EITHER WAY, NO GAS, NO OIL lubricating, means LEAN and DRY means KABOOM.

The issues with Ethanol CAN cause a 2cycle to implode like the OP's saw. 3 times in a row? So while it COULD happen, I doubt it.

PS

One other point I disagree with: Reversing Saturation in the gas tank. Once again, maybe I misread or missed something.

I do get that that e10 is a solution. (Ethanol dissolves in the gasoline, thus no shaking involved). I do get that Ethanol absorbs water. I do get that that absorption, at the saturation point, causes separation of said solution into 3 separate solutions which are changing based on temps and the atmosphere. I DON'T think that process can be reversed in a tank of gas. A lab perhaps but once saturation point occurs in a tank of gas, that's that. One needs to empty it.

Mix a bag of cement with too much water and throw some more mix in. If you don't have more mix, then that cement will probably get hard only by freezing temps. When it gets warmer, it will soften again. Is this what you're (more or less) saying happens? I just don't think so but I could be wrong.

It has been a while and I'm not interested in looking it up. Yet...

 

[cheeves]

i agree with the other guys,,, i personally think they are tuning it way to lean,, i personally like them a bit fat just for that reason,, to this day i have never smoked a p/c

Me either!! Get another dealer, and listen to the Real Pro's on Here!!

 

[dboyd351]

Just make it worth your while and fill a drum, add the appropriate fuel stabilizer and make sure you store it in the shadiest coolest spot you have. I live real close to a non ethanol station, but if I didn't I would make the trip and get at least like 25 gallons or so.

Pretty much exactly what I was trying to tell him. I live in a rural area and a 30 mile trip is nothing.

 

[BrocLuno]

Looks like all the Ethanol banter ran off the OP ?? I seriously doubt that E-10 was the problem ... There's something else wrong, although it might be fuel related ... It might be an oil that incompatible with E-10 such that there is no effective friction barrier?

 

[Ronaldo]

Hi mitch!

 

[VikingDrive]

Hi Ron!

Hi mitch!

Hi Mitch and Ron!

 

[SilverKing]

I do have a lot of problems with dirt and water in the gas here in wv,more so with the ethanol,which is all thats available now.We have an old Farmall M we play around with some with a BRAND NEW gas tank.Every tank of gas we run through it ya gotta clean the glass sediment bowl.So I do know for a fact gas is getting dirtier.If your gas station runs out of gas alot,it will also make for dirtier gas. One thing your dealer should look at is the inlet screens in your carbs.The screen clogs up,saw starts running lean,and thats all she wrote.Keep a few extra fuel filters on hand too. Good luck

 

[Mpbowyer]

I think you need to consider the 441 m-tronic. Then your tuning woes would be gone.

I understand everyone wanting to help this guy become a saw guru, but I also understand that this guy doesn't want to have to become a saw guru like many of us do. Like Dirty Hairy said,""
[video=youtube;_VrFV5r8cs0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0[/video]

441 CM (m-tronic). It is powerful and you don't have to tune it. If your craftsman had a 20" bar, then its probably not too big. Stihl recommends 16"-32".

 

[Mpbowyer]

Mix a bag of cement with too much water and throw some more mix in. If you don't have more mix, then that cement will probably get hard only by freezing temps. When it gets warmer, it will soften again. Is this what you're (more or less) saying happens? I just don't think so but I could be wrong.

It has been a while and I'm not interested in looking it up. Yet...

Cement doesn't dry it cures. Pour a bag of cement into the edge of a pond and it will "dry" underwater. How do you think they make boat ramps?

I think your well-intentioned mental chemist is off a bit. And I do believe that a chemical can be pulled out of solution by the addition of another chemical that dissolves with one but not the other.

 

[Whitespider]

Maybe we're just talking past each other - how does a phase separated ethanol/water mixture get into the cylinder? It's not squirted in there, it has to get vaporized in the carb which was not designed for that liquid…

A mixture isn’t the same thing as a solution. To mix water with Ethanol requires stirring or shaking, and the two will begin to slowly separate as soon as you stop stirring; Water is held in solution at the molecular level with Ethanol (and all Ethanol has some water in solution), when the fuel “vaporizes” in the carb (not true vaporization like evaporation, more like an ultra-fine mist) the water molecules are simply carried along for the ride.

A solution of Ethanol/water will combust nearly the same a "pure" Ethanol (the difference would not be noticeable to you in a saw).

Now here’s where the problem is…
When Ethanol phase separates in a cold underground tank it’s possible for you to pump a slug of (water saturated) pure Ethanol into your gas can (you won’t see it because the pumping “stirs” it up in the can). As the fuel warms up the saturation point of the Ethanol rises (it is no longer saturated) and goes back into solution with gasoline… So now, rather than the E10 you thought you bought, you actually have E15, E20, E30, maybe even E40. I don’t care how well you tune your saw, the Ethanol will generate excessive and damaging heat, more than enough to score a piston. And if the fuel again phase separates in the saw’s fuel tank it’s possible to pull a slug of pure Ethanol (although water saturated) into the cylinder… and that’s gonna break things faster than you can shut it down.