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Whitespider said:
Phase separation results in free water and free Ethanol! Ethanol is a solvent… it displaces oil on metal surfaces. Ethanol burns at a much higher temperature than gasoline, and a mixture of air and Ethanol does not “sink” as much heat while being introduced into the engine. If (as you say), “the amount of ethanol does not effect the amount of lubricant in the mix, so engine damage would still only be a consequence of running lean”, I guess we can mix our oil with 100% Ethanol and safely burn it in our chainsaws… correct? (By-the-way, I wouldn’t try that if I were you)
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Fuel is also a solvent and contains many other solvents that are added to increase octane. Like others have said some race saws run on alcohol, oils like Klotz original techniplate are made to mix with alcohol, nitromethane and it stays in suspension.
 
mweba said:
I will add this, if no one else has......I'm way to lazy to read back through this thread. If you really want to avoid ethanol, assuming what is on the label is accurate, avoid single nozzle pumps. What ever the last person purchased, probably the cheapest fuel, is the first gallon or so that will come out.....its already in the hose.
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When I was 12 y/o or so, my friend and I would hop on our Bicycles at night and go from gas to gas station and lift the hoses up. We would end up with enough gas to ride our mini-bikes for a few days. Then back to the night raids...
 
Anthony_Va. said:
You fellows should just move to my town. Three stations with 100% gasoline within 5 miles of my house. :laugh:
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Get a truck and fill it with some ported Tennessee saws, non-ethanol gas, some back woods potato whiskey, non taxed cigarettes and head north. I will provide the 70's southern rock and roll, food, (my wife is a southerner and can cook with the best of them) and I will show you a good time.

ps

I don't drink or smoke anymore but we can sell both 'cause someone has to pay for those saws...
 
Nipper said:
I also follow the dealers advice to empty the tank and run the engine out of fuel before putting it away.
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The only time I recommend this is when I intend to dry-store a saw for several months and expect it to start right up later. What I do is drain all the fuel from the tank, then pull what's in the carb and lines through in order to keep the flexible bits dry. I do this only on engines that are cold. I'm very careful to not actually run them lean, especially under any kind of load. When I run out of fuel while cutting, I kill the engine at the first sputter and refuel.
 
Whitespider said:
Phase separation results in free water and free Ethanol! Ethanol is a solvent… it displaces oil on metal surfaces. Ethanol burns at a much higher temperature than gasoline, and a mixture of air and Ethanol does not “sink” as much heat while being introduced into the engine. If (as you say), “the amount of ethanol does not effect the amount of lubricant in the mix, so engine damage would still only be a consequence of running lean”, I guess we can mix our oil with 100% Ethanol and safely burn it in our chainsaws… correct? (By-the-way, I wouldn’t try that if I were you)
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So if you put enough water in E10 to get free water, then you also get free ethanol? Can't be free ethanol of it would just be E10 again, but perhaps an ethanol/water saturated mixture, free water and gasoline? And you pour this in carefully so you get no water in, and it runs well enough that you don't hear any tuning problems at all while your piston melts?

Possible I suppose, but unlikely in my view. One small slug of water in a carb passage and you aren't running any more, because the carb cannot vaporize it and it just sits there blocking fuel flow.

In fact I've had a few cans of mower fuel with water in them recently, probably because those often sit outside, and I've had to drain the fuel system and pull the fuel bowls. Those cans had a lot of free standing water, so presumably the ethanol was separated too? I poured that fuel into a glass jar and I could not see it, there was just one boundary between fuel and water. I poured the fuel off the water and ran it in the mower and it ran perfectly, which I would not expect if much of it was a separated ethanol/water saturation. And in a two stroke, if it isn't separated from the gasoline then it still contains mix oil.

Like I said, for various reasons I don't like ethanol in the fuel, but I don't think it's quite the bogeyman it's made out to be. I scored the piston on my Craftsman/Poulan Wild Thing years ago, and I'm quite sure that was from bad mix. The thing ran poorly and I kept nursing it along and pushing it to get another cut in, basically out of ignorance. If a saw ran like that now I'd shut it off instantly and find out what was wrong.
 
WoodHeatWarrior said:
Like I said, for various reasons I don't like ethanol in the fuel, but I don't think it's quite the bogeyman it's made out to be.
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I agree with this statement. Ethanol gets blamed for almost everything, BUT I've seen it turn fuel lines to gummy bears full of holes, destroy carb diaphragms and rubber needle seats and clog up injectors. It also doesn't separate out water cleanly from the fuel like regular gas does, so water separating fuel filters like the Racors used on boats don't work well.

Even though ethanol often gets blamed for things it doesn't do, the list of things I know it can do is enough to make me go out of my way to avoid it if at all possible, especially for high strung engines that sit for long periods without use - things like chainsaws, mowers, trimmers, boats, snowmobiles and dirt bikes.
 
Andyshine77 said:
Fuel is also a solvent and contains many other solvents that are added to increase octane. Like others have said some race saws run on alcohol, oils like Klotz original techniplate are made to mix with alcohol, nitromethane and it stays in suspension.
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Not all solvents displace oil, and Methanol has totally different chemical properties than Ethanol.
 
WoodHeatWarrior said:
So if you put enough water in E10 to get free water, then you also get free ethanol? Can't be free ethanol of it would just be E10 again...
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Nope, you're wrong... When Ethanol becomes saturated with water it drops out of solution with gasoline, and the excess water drops out of solution with Ethanol. That's what phase separation is... do your research. The only way for Ethanol to go back into solution with gasoline is to remove the water, and that requires a lab... it can be shaken to mix with gasoline, but it won't be put back into solution.
 
Whitespider said:
Nope, you're wrong... When Ethanol becomes saturated with water it drops out of solution with gasoline, and the excess water drops out of solution with Ethanol. That's what phase separation is... do your research. The only way for Ethanol to go back into solution with gasoline is to remove the water, and that requires a lab... it can be shaken to mix with gasoline, but it won't be put back into solution.
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What keeps the free ethanol from mixing with the gasoline, which it does easily? The only reason ethanol is separated from the gasoline is because it is saturated with water.

Your phases are gasoline and some ethanol, ethanol and water, and free water. The latter two don't burn.
 
Whitespider said:
Nope, you're wrong... When Ethanol becomes saturated with water it drops out of solution with gasoline, and the excess water drops out of solution with Ethanol. That's what phase separation is... do your research. The only way for Ethanol to go back into solution with gasoline is to remove the water, and that requires a lab... it can be shaken to mix with gasoline, but it won't be put back into solution.
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You make valid points with some facts but by being brash while taking people out of context, your impact and credibility is shot. I want to agree with most things you articulate, if you didn't come across as such an A hole? I mean that in the most respectful way of course. :smile2:
 
Andyshine77 said:
You can make water and oil mix and stay in suspension with the proper surfactants and congealers. Stop while you're ahead! you're in over your head.
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Are you friggin’ kiddin’ me? What the hell does making oil stay in “suspension” with water have to do with anything being discussed here. When something is mixed it can remain in “suspension” for a certain amount of time, depending… That ain’t the same as being in “solution”.

Over my head? That’s a laugh.

WoodHeatWarrior said:
Your phases are gasoline and some ethanol, ethanol and water, and free water. The latter two don't burn.
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Wrong again… Ethanol saturated with water will readily burn, and the water is emitted as steam. There ain’t any such thing as 100% free (or pure) Ethanol outside of a lab… even “pure” grain alcohol (Ethanol, or commonly called Everclear) is at best 90% Ethanol and 10% water (190 Proof) until the lid is opened and it begins to saturate with water from the surrounding atmosphere. Leave a glass of Everclear sitting open to atmosphere overnight and it will be saturated with water in the morning… and putting a match to it will still cause it to burn. Ethanol pulls water from atmosphere and saturates, but it will still burn. Temperature is what determines the saturation point, or percentage of water the Ethanol will hold in solution. When I say, or said, free Ethanol I was talking about water saturated Ethanol “free” from solution with gasoline (any and all Ethanol open to atmosphere is “saturated” with water within hours, that’s just the nature of it). If temperature increases the saturation point increases, if temperature decreases so does the saturation point and the excess water drops out of solution with the Ethanol. When Ethanol becomes saturated it can no longer remain in solution with gasoline… that’s also the nature of it. Shaking it all up will mix it, and it may remain in “suspension” for a while, but is not put back into “solution” unless water (relative to temperature) is removed.



And hey mweba, I ain't being an A-hole... that's just your perception.
 
:ghost: Boogity, boogity, boogity, boooooh, boogity, boogity, boooh!

:waaaht: Oh no, what is that?

:ghost: I'm the EVIL BIG E, boogity, boogity, boogity, boooooooooh!

:eek:h: Oh no, however will my stuffs survive?

:ghost: Your stuffs is mine now and forever, I work for the government and you cannot hide from me. Well, you kind of can, I mean you could buy that crazy sheet that is $5.00 a quart or drive an hour each way to get some stuffs or go to an airport, maybe a boat dock or race track but is it really worth the hassle. I suppose you coouuld buy a gallon of each and mix it thus cutting my most excellent evilness in half but then again you could exorcise your fuel altogether spend the $$$$$$$ to replace whats goodness' lost and go from there, or ............

:surrender: Yeah, I'll just give up and die all the whilst complaining about it endlessly.

:ghost: Close enough, that will work too. Boogity, boogity, booh. ALL FEAR THE EVIL BIG E, ROOOAAAAAR, boooogity, boogity boooooh.

:sad4:
 

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