Someone level with me..... Please!

[SCHallenger]

level with me

O yes and get rid of those blasted limited coils if at all possible:hmm3grin2orange:

If you can tell me how or with what I can replace the limited coil on my otherwise terrific (muff modded & H needle restriction removed) MS201, I would be very grateful!!!

SCH

 

[mweba]

Thanks for taking that one bit out of context to the rest of the post.

As I stated, Ethanol causes fuel system damage which in turn can cause engine damage. The owner is responsible for the maintenance of their fuel system (and the majority do a terrible job). It has to be tuned just as altitude does.

This thread was about a new engine burning up so to say ethanol was the only factor is inaccurate. This saw was more than likely not tuned accordingly. We can sure start anther thread on fuel system damage if you'd like.

 

[tommyus4]

I use the synthetic/gas in the can mix at 50-1. I think I will change it to 40-1. All 3 saws and my trimmer are on the Can. I don't use any of them THAT much and I'd rather pay now than later.

My question is: Are there better brands of premix in the can? Sears is $5 and change, whatever they sell at HD is $6 and change and Stihl is near $10.

 

[blsnelling]

The way I read all this, is that the problem is not fuel containing alcohol, but rather stale fuel containing alcohol, the key word being stale not alcohol. Keep you're fuel fresh, and I just don't awe it being a problem. I'm not talking about the longevity of the fuel system, only the ability of the engine to burn the fuel safely.

The reason your alcohol pile will be higher, is because that's what people are running, compounded by the fact that they don't keep their fuel fresh, and don't have the equipment tuned properly for it.

 

[ancy]

I use the synthetic/gas in the can mix at 50-1. I think I will change it to 40-1. All 3 saws and my trimmer are on the Can. I don't use any of them THAT much and I'd rather pay now than later.

My question is: Are there better brands of premix in the can? Sears is $5 and change, whatever they sell at HD is $6 and change and Stihl is near $10.

Walmart:msp_thumbdn: has Tru-Fuel 40:1 at around $4 a can, wait till fall and pick it up for under $1!

 

[tommyus4]

Brad:

I think you hit one of the nails on the head there (my nail, anyway). The problem is (as you know) sometimes we are sold stale fuel. I sure thought I had a bad mix and I went to The :can:.

I will have to visit Wally World and get The :can: there.

 

[discounthunter]

so you have a box store craftsman that is still going after 20years,im going to guess your well established dealer has NOT touched it.

he tells you to run a saw with a scored piston, run your saw out of fuel ,and tunes a saw that has now fried 2 p/c's.

brother ,wake up and smell a new dealer. dont bash the brand,just move on.

let me guess your wonderfull dealer is MORE than willing to sell you a NEW saw.

 

[Chris-PA]

What is the mechanism for cylinder damage from ethanol? It's not good enough to say ethanol damages engines - how does it do that? Wear on engine internals is indeed cumulative, but even ethanol free fuel has zero lubricating capabilities - that's the job of the mix oil.

Phase separation in and of itself is not going to score a piston because it results in free water, which cannot be vaporized in a carburetor - therefore your engine will not run, or it will run so obviously poorly that you will know to shut it off and find out what the problem is. If you try to keep it running under those conditions you'll likely kill it. On the other hand I've had water in fuel long before ethanol, and it didn't vaporize then either. So yes, ethanol is hygroscopic and that's problematic if your fuel is exposed to water. But the amount of ethanol does not effect the amount of lubricant in the mix, so engine damage would still only be a consequence of running lean.

If the ethanol content varies enough to effect the tuning to the lean side then the operator should hear that and adjust the mixture - given the really crude carbs on these engines (i.e. without M-tronic or Autotune) YOU are the feedback system. As we discussed recently most of these things are so cheap and crude they usually don't even have properly placed bowl vents and so even a bit of typical filter clogging will change the mixture (rich, fortunately). There are no high speed or high load enrichment systems, usually no accelerator pumps, just a high and low speed fixed jet and a couple of transfer holes. I'm always suspicious of every new tank of fuel, but I store them properly so once I've confirmed the tuning on a new can I know what to expect from it.

If the amount of ethanol in the fuel is changing at the station, then it's doing that for every automobile engine filling up there. Why doesn't it matter (and we're talking coated aluminum cylinder bores on many recent engines)? Because the cylinder walls are still lubed, the mixture is controlled, and if it is injected any water droplets will be pumped through resulting only in a misfire. For this reason I think M-tronic or Autotune are a good idea for many operators. I tend to like things simple, but I'm willing to accept the compromises and know I must keep the mixture adjusted.

Having said all that I think ethanol in fuel is a terrible idea, but more because it takes more energy from oil to make the ethanol than you get back, and because I think burning food is dumb.

 

[dboyd351]

Ethanol free gas stations

If you don't know about it, check out this website: Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
I never use ethanol fuel in any small 2 stroke engine. Buy ethanol free fuel, treat it with Stabil or another good fuel stabilizer WHEN YOU BUY IT and you're good for at least 6 months.

 

[deranged]

If you don't know about it, check out this website: Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
I never use ethanol fuel in any small 2 stroke engine. Buy ethanol free fuel, treat it with Stabil or another good fuel stabilizer WHEN YOU BUY IT and you're good for at least 6 months.

Suggestions for those of us who don't have one of those stations anywhere near us? I tried the airport to, no go.

I buy premium from Sam's Club here, put 5 gallons in the truck usually first, or the 5 gallon straight gas can, then fill my mix can, mix in my Saber at 50:1, and try to use it within a month, if I don't I feed it to the riding mower. Using that method, is it necessary to use Stabil or another stabilizer?

 

[ft. churchill]

Remember back in the days of USAC and CART indy cars, all they burned was alcohol. Many drag racing classes are also alky burners. Some race saws as well. Way way back in the day, model T fords had a lever for spark adjustment as those cars could and did run on straight alcohol, that's why the lever was there to tune for different fuels and to allow for easier starting. Back then without modern metallurgy and design it did not cause engines to fail, and CART indy cars knocked down 800 to 900 hp from 160 cid engines in 1975. Its not the alcohol, its that the engine is not being tuned correctly for the fuel mix that is being run thru the engine. Alcohol is hard on metal parts (especially methanol) and tends to destroy rubber diaphragms and such. That could cause air leaks and an engine to run lean. Please look for some of the wonderful tuning videos out there on tuning. Brad Snelling has some good ones. :msp_wink:

 

[Rounder]

Lucas "Safegaurd" ethanol fuel conditioner.

 

[dboyd351]

Suggestions for those of us who don't have one of those stations anywhere near us? I tried the airport to, no go.

I buy premium from Sam's Club here, put 5 gallons in the truck usually first, or the 5 gallon straight gas can, then fill my mix can, mix in my Saber at 50:1, and try to use it within a month, if I don't I feed it to the riding mower. Using that method, is it necessary to use Stabil or another stabilizer?

Don't know if these suggestions will work, but here goes:
1) In my area, a number of the places selling ethanol free gas are marinas or Ag supply stores with a pump. You might want to try those types of stores. Non-ethanol fuel is usually easier to find in rural areas, not the city, I believe because of exceptions for marine and Ag uses.
2) Depending on how much fuel you go thru, it might be worth a 50 mile drive to buy enough to last you 6 months, especially if you are taking the trip for another reason anyway. 5-10 gallons of premix will last lots of people for months and non-ethanol gas treated with Stabil will last 6 months minimum.
3) There's always the cans of Tru-fuel or other premix mentioned earlier in this thread, but I think it goes for something like $5/quart.

I'd hazard a guess that anything over a month of storage without stabilizers is risky with ethanol fuels. Why not treat it? The cost is extremely minimal compared to an engine meltdown or shop repair bill.

I'll admit I have several local sources of non-ethanol fuel, so it is a no brainer for me, but I'm still paying a little over $4/gallon for non-ethanol fuel, as opposed to $3.20 for regular ethanol fuel. And I still use a stabilizer in the non-ethanol fuel, just to be sure.

 

[mweba]

I will add this, if no one else has......I'm way to lazy to read back through this thread. If you really want to avoid ethanol, assuming what is on the label is accurate, avoid single nozzle pumps. What ever the last person purchased, probably the cheapest fuel, is the first gallon or so that will come out.....its already in the hose. Either burn a gallon into your car or avoid them all together.


And might I add...by no means do I tote the ethanol flag. Quite the opposite but more due to ethical and political reasons really.

 

[Mastermind]

I will add this, if no one else has......I'm way to lazy to read back through this thread. If you really want to avoid ethanol, assuming what is on the label is accurate, avoid single nozzle pumps. What ever the last person purchased, probably the cheapest fuel, is the first gallon or so that will come out.....its already in the hose. Either burn a gallon into your car or avoid them all together.


And might I add...by no means do I tote the ethanol flag. Quite the opposite but more due to ethical and political reasons really.

The "ethanol flag" huh?

That ain't like that really colorful flag that Jay flies is it? :msp_unsure:

 

[mweba]

The "ethanol flag" huh?

That ain't like that really colorful flag that Jay flies is it? :msp_unsure:

Jay is British? Who knew?:jester:

 

[Chris-PA]

Ethanol is a great additive - in say, a cold Rolling Rock 16oz long neck........

 

[mweba]

I'm tuned accordingly.

 

[Whitespider]

What is the mechanism for cylinder damage from ethanol?... ethanol free fuel has zero lubricating capabilities - that's the job of the mix oil.
Phase separation in and of itself is not going to score a piston because it results in free water… But the amount of ethanol does not effect the amount of lubricant in the mix, so engine damage would still only be a consequence of running lean.

Phase separation results in free water and free Ethanol! Ethanol is a solvent… it displaces oil on metal surfaces. Ethanol burns at a much higher temperature than gasoline, and a mixture of air and Ethanol does not “sink” as much heat while being introduced into the engine. If (as you say), “the amount of ethanol does not effect the amount of lubricant in the mix, so engine damage would still only be a consequence of running lean”, I guess we can mix our oil with 100% Ethanol and safely burn it in our chainsaws… correct? (By-the-way, I wouldn’t try that if I were you)

If the ethanol content varies enough to effect the tuning to the lean side then the operator should hear that and adjust the mixture…

Sure… That’s fine for you and I (to some extent). But small, high RPM two-cycle engines are not just found in chainsaws in the hands of mechanics… those engines are found in all sorts of homeowner power equipment, as well as recreational equipment and toys (some made for kids). Most small, high RPM two-cycle engines are owned and operated by people with zero idea how to “tune” anything. That’s the world we live in…

If the amount of ethanol in the fuel is changing at the station, then it's doing that for every automobile engine filling up there. Why doesn't it matter…

It does matter, but not in the same critical way… or not usually in rapid catastrophic failure. A large, four-cycle, pressure lubed, liquid cooled engine running 3000 RPM just ain’t the same thing as a small, two-cycle, fuel lubed, air cooled engine running at 13,500 RPM. And autos have large fuel tanks… getting a 3 second douse of 50% Ethanol in a 20 gallon tank won’t have the same consequences like it would in a 1 or 2 gallon storage can.

Having said all that I think ethanol in fuel is a terrible idea, but more because it takes more energy from oil to make the ethanol than you get back, and because I think burning food is dumb.

I could not agree more.

 

[ElgBurner]

Dolmaris the Problem

I have a Dolmar 5100s that has a scored piston, much like some folks have experienced.

However API has denied the warranty due to "insufficient lubrication"

Here are the facts.

I used the saw 4 times in about 7 mo, always using the Jaso rated oil with 89 oct gas 50:1 just like the manual says.

This saw was used to cut approx 1/4 cord of maple-typical homeowner work.

The dealer is passing me on to the distributor, who seems to be ignoring my e-mails and calls.

Likewise I called Dolmar and they passed me back to API.

I bought the saw in 2011, as it turned out I was sold a 2008 saw, which seems to be the problem year.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Any help or insight is appreciated.

ElgBurner